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TO&E Bugs, Oversights, Quibbles, Opinions and Suggestions Thread


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14 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

So, he can't give orders to his FO? How come they can call in fire missions at all? He should be able to quote the map coordinates and let his FO call the mission without the FO having eyes on the objective. If you lose the FO, you may as well pack it in in this battle. I can accept that they have only one link, but more spotters should be able to spot for the spotter. Anyway, it is a game, but the devil is in the detail. I would appreciate references of Soviet doctrine. Happy gaming. 

That’s what the FO is for...

However, I wasn’t talking about the unit calling for fire having C2 or the hierarchy of its C2 structure; but that the ability to contact on an on-map indirect unit is dependent on the on-map indirect unit’s C2.  If they don’t have the necessary connection, the will show as “out of contact.”

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@akd I won't lose any sleep over it, just agree to disagree. I enjoy the battle so far. I can cease fire too at any time if an HQ or private Alex Alekbajev out of contact sees a waste of ammunition. No problem I have some house rules to deal with ridiculous situations. It is a marvelous game but not perfect. Happy gaming. 

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Soviet Artillery in WW2 was very inflexible compared to other nations, many reasons for that. Heavy artillery was only used in pre-planned barrages or in pre-planned fire plans. They were not used for "on call" support as is typical in other armies.

To simulate that in game, only FOs can call in the heavy stuff and it has a long delay so it is only really useful as a 1st turn pre-planned barrage.

I am pretty sure that has been discussed various times when RT first came out.

 

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7 minutes ago, Sgt Joch said:

it has a long delay

That's 15 minutes That's good for the first hour, I need to organize a second barrage for the second half of the battle. (Seelow) I located the German position 15 minutes in the battle. I will follow the advice in the scenario and organize the smoke screen which needs 14 minutes. The JS2s don't have smoke, I didn't check the other armored assets. Happy gaming, I appreciate the work you guys put into it. I should pull off at least a tactical victory here. Flanking the German armor will be hard *spoiler* but not impossible. I am a direct and skeptical person don't take it personal. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

@akd I won't lose any sleep over it, just agree to disagree. I enjoy the battle so far. I can cease fire too at any time if an HQ or private Alex Alekbajev out of contact sees a waste of ammunition. No problem I have some house rules to deal with ridiculous situations. It is a marvelous game but not perfect. Happy gaming. 

Let's think about this. Either:

1. It is a planned mission.  The FO can do this during setup. You can pretend the commander ordered him to do it.

2. It is a TRP mission.  The FO can do this at any time from any position.  You can pretend the commander ordered him to do it.

3. It is a mission on an unregistered target and you are willing to accept the inaccuracy that comes with skipping spotting.  The FO can do this at any time from any position with an "emergency" mission.  You can pretend the commander ordered him to do it.

4. It is a mission on an unregistered target that you want adjusted for accuracy.  The FO will need to observe the fall of shot to send corrections.  You are asking that the commander be the FO instead.

Edited by akd
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8 hours ago, akd said:

The FO can do this during setup.

You can do it only for the first 15 minutes the scenario is 2hrs. I can live with that

 

8 hours ago, akd said:

It is a mission on an unregistered target and you are willing to accept the inaccuracy that comes with skipping spotting.  The FO can do this at any time from any position with an "emergency" mission.  You can pretend the commander ordered him to do it.

This is new to me! I am used to the idea that the FO must have LOS to where the barrage strikes outside the set-up period. I already made some house rules in regards C2 in CM it is radio or nothing. HQs without a visible channel of communications can call in mortars how they do it is anybody's guess. I read up on some protocols to go by. If it is all set piece on the Soviet side, you should be able to plan fire missions during the game's duration. Cancel only if there is a HQ-to-HQ link with the Regimental HQ. I am not a game designer, but I would go one step up from Iron. That's artillery should represent real life. Example in the modern game you hear 'Flash Out' observed the strike and adjusted. Didn't realize the communication was only there for cosmetic purposes. Once again, I enjoy the game and don't lose any sleep if you disagree with my opinions. Kind regards

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On 5/10/2021 at 6:40 PM, chuckdyke said:

That's artillery should represent real life. Example in the modern game you hear 'Flash Out' observed the strike and adjusted. Didn't realize the communication was only there for cosmetic purposes.

That's your conclusion after everything @akd just explained to you? Goodness gracious, that's... sad. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

That's your conclusion after everything @akd just explained to you? Goodness gracious, that's... sad. 

How did you manage to become a tester? I regard you as a rude and uncouth person.  yes, I forgot you can't question testers my apologies for that. In real life the Soviets employed 1 artillery piece for every 2 meters. 

Edited by chuckdyke
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Posted (edited)

To bring things a bit more back onto topic for TO&E stuff rather than wandering into the weeds of broader artillery mechanics, got a correction to an aside I made in the OP, particularly this to do with the Lloyd Mortar Carrier:

On 4/11/2021 at 8:19 PM, DanonQM said:

(Honestly the vehicle itself might be an oversight, as it's only present in anti-tank gun platoons/troops [2x Lloyds + 2x 'mortar' Lloyds per section], and contains ammo for 2 inch mortars, which the anti-tank gun platoons do not have and as far as I know the only use of the Lloyd in a mortar related role was as a transport for the 4.2" Heavy Mortar).

At the time it completely slipped my mind that AT gun platoons were indeed issued 2-inch mortars at a ratio of one per gun, and thus the Lloyd Mortar carrier is a wholly appropriate inclusion, however it led me instead to a pair of different issues related to British AT gun sections as they currently are represented in BfN and FI.

Bugs

- BfN and FI British AT gun section Lloyd Mortar Carriers have a 2 inch Mortar in their inventory that can be Acquired, but never used. I believe this is a result of the mortar being a regular 2 inch rather than the '2 in. Airborne mortar' contained in Carrier sections' vehicles for example, as the former is modelled as a crew served weapon with a very short deployment time, while the latter is modelled as a grenade launcher, and no unit can be come a 'weapon crew' after the game starts (even in deployment).

Oversights

- BfN and FI British Infantry and Motor Battalion and Antitank Battery 6 pounder and 17 pounder AT gun sections should have a Bren gun per gun, carried in the ammo bearer Lloyd for 6 pounder sections and presumably operated by the ammo bearers to defend the gun position. A number of German formations have ammo bearers with one rifle and one LMG (FI Fallschirmjager recoilless rifle ammo bearers are the first that comes to mind but I think I've run into some others too) so I think extending this to the British where their unit organisations note it is only fair. Sources: https://web.archive.org/web/20181222174041/http://www.warestablishments.net/Great Britain/Infantry/Infantry Battalion November 1944.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20161108184741/http://www.warestablishments.net/Great Britain/Infantry/Motor Battalion June 1943.pdf https://nigelef.tripod.com/antk42.htm (As an aside, this last one also indicates the presence of 2" mortars in the 17 pounder AT Gun Troops, which currently do not receive one in their halftrack transports)

 

Edit: Oh, and because this is a useful contemporary source for my Quibble in the OP regarding vehicle crew personal weapons, I'll post this Canadian wartime vehicle data book, which starting from pg 12 of the part 1 scan contains a listing of many Commonwealth vehicles that include the standard stowed equipment, including small arms like SMGs, Brens and rifles: https://wartimecanada.ca/sites/default/files/documents/Vehicle Data Book Pt1.pdf https://wartimecanada.ca/sites/default/files/documents/Vehicle Data Book Pt2.pdf

Edited by DanonQM
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Posted (edited)

@DanonQM Thanks for your references, in my humble opinion CM should also include the Signal Pistol with their AT batteries. I like to be a stickler for C2 organization. Here is one of your references.

pounder.jpg

 

Edited by chuckdyke
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I don't think CM really has the capability to simulate signal pistols as of the current engine iteration, at least as far as I know, so I wouldn't really rate the signal pistol's inclusion as a particularly high priority, at least until such a time as it could have a meaningful role. By contrast, having an organic smoke/indirect fire weapon and a protective LMG for each gun is a genuinely impactful boon to their use in-game. 

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5 minutes ago, DanonQM said:

I don't think CM really has the capability to simulate signal pistols

It is useful for a protocol. Pre-arranged: "In position lift boxing barrage." A boxing barrage screens you from the enemy." I don't expect a fancy animation. Just take one cartridge from the inventory. Artillery really underwent a revolution during WW2. The US innovation of the proximity fuse had a secrecy 0n the level of the Manhattan project. I just try to make some sense of the Soviet attack on Seelow according to BF. I play the game according to their protocol but hard to distinguish between of what is generic and what is not. Thanks for your attention. 

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Posted (edited)

Hi everyone,

I'm playing turn-based with veteran difficulty 

When i spot enemies with my scouts i see icons of those enemies only when scouts picked or when no one picked but when i choose another unit that can  blind fire to spotted enemies but doesn't see them those floating icons disappear and if the enemy is far away it becomes annoying to aim the blind fire at him.  Is there any way to keep those icons of spotted enemies turned on if i choose my unit that didn't  spot them yet but have a line of sight for shooting? of course only while scouts track those enemies

I was talking about this i suppose, just found it:

"When a friendly unit is clicked on the following icon changes occur:

- whatever enemy units can be directly seen by the selected unit are shown the others are hidden "

Ok i just checked it works only with basic difficulty but with veteran spotted enemy icon just dissapears.

So if i'm right and there is no way to do the same in Veteran difficulty tell me how you place a blind fire in situation like this? I have to pick enemy fist TAB on him then from enemy square i'm peering into the distance trying to find my unit far far away choose this unit and T to enemy square  and it taking a lot of time and patients ))

Thank you

Edited by maxmaxmax
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29 minutes ago, maxmaxmax said:

Hi everyone,

I'm playing turn-based with veteran difficulty 

When i spot enemies with my scouts i see icons of those enemies only when scouts picked or when no one picked but when i choose another unit that can  blind fire to spotted enemies but doesn't see them those floating icons disappear and if the enemy is far away it becomes annoying to aim the blind fire at him.  Is there any way to keep those icons of spotted enemies turned on if i choose my unit that didn't  spot them yet but have a line of sight for shooting? of course only while scouts track those enemies

I was talking about this i suppose, just found it:

"When a friendly unit is clicked on the following icon changes occur:

- whatever enemy units can be directly seen by the selected unit are shown the others are hidden "

If there is no way to do this how do you aim your blind fire in situation like mine? I have to pick enemie fist TAB on him then from enemy square i'm peering into the distance trying to find my unit far far away choose this unit and T to enemy square  and it taking a lot of time and patients ))

Thank you

Keeping your units in communication with each other (in C2) will help.  Even if a unit cannot see the enemy, the unit that has spotted the enemy can share the location of the enemy giving other units in communication a ? icon on the location.  This will then increase their chance of spotting the same enemy unit themselves.

I personally play with a house rule whereby I only place area fire on a location based on the presence of enemy units in that location if the unit I want to conduct area fire has a ? icon on the location.  You as a god-like presence hovering over the battlefield know where all the baddies are, but really your troops should only know and be able to act on that information if it is shared via C2.

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, akd said:

Keeping your units in communication with each other (in C2) will help.  Even if a unit cannot see the enemy, the unit that has spotted the enemy can share the location of the enemy giving other units in communication a ? icon on the location.  This will then increase their chance of spotting the same enemy unit themselves.

I personally play with a house rule whereby I only place area fire on a location based on the presence of enemy units in that location if the unit I want to conduct area fire has a ? icon on the location.  You as a god-like presence hovering over the battlefield know where all the baddies are, but really your troops should only know and be able to act on that information if it is shared via C2.

So i was right the thing i asked available only in basic difficulty? in veteran  you should be connected by radio with others and even in that way when scout reports  about enemy you see only transparent icon with ? sign right?

At first screenshot  FO team is picked and they track enemy BMP for about 5 minutes already but when i choose my tank on a second screenshot he has no enemy in that place even ? icon is in the wrong place not where BMP is . Why is that so? because my tank is too far from FO team? Or my tank just didn't received an info from FO team?

Ok I just found it in tutorial  explaining everything so my questions from above are off.Have one left at the bottom :)

"

By using the hotkey ALT-Z, C2 links will be represented on the battlefield by lines connecting units to their parent HQs. A bright red link indicates a strong C2 con- nection, usually both visual and audio. A slightly darker red link indicates a weaker C2 link, which is usually usually just visual contact. A dark link means there is no C2 contact, and the unit is out of command with it’s parent HQ.

"

The problem is that i'm color blinded and can't see when the red link is bright or  dark  or slightly dark . Any other way to understand how strong my connection is??

Edited by maxmaxmax
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Glad you got your answer but this should probably have been its own thread, as I'm not sure why you thought a question about spotting mechanics belonged in a thread about TO&E issues (basically stuff to do with force selection: formations, single vehicles, specialist teams, their content), it really seems quite off-topic.

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3 minutes ago, DanonQM said:

Glad you got your answer but this should probably have been its own thread, as I'm not sure why you thought a question about spotting mechanics belonged in a thread about TO&E issues (basically stuff to do with force selection: formations, single vehicles, specialist teams, their content), it really seems quite off-topic.

My apologies ! I'm new here and couldn't find the right thread for my question also english is my 2nd language it adds more mistakes in searching the right topic.  And still got one question :) 

 

"

By using the hotkey ALT-Z, C2 links will be represented on the battlefield by lines connecting units to their parent HQs. A bright red link indicates a strong C2 con- nection, usually both visual and audio. A slightly darker red link indicates a weaker C2 link, which is usually usually just visual contact. A dark link means there is no C2 contact, and the unit is out of command with it’s parent HQ.

"

The problem is that i'm color blinded and can't see when the red link is bright or  dark  or slightly dark . Any other way to understand how strong my connection is??

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11 minutes ago, maxmaxmax said:

The problem is that i'm color blinded and can't see when the red link is bright or  dark  or slightly dark . Any other way to understand how strong my connection is??

lecture.png

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