AT guns, a general question about when to fire.

[Sven]

How do I calculate whether there's a point in firing or not? Since I'm not a gun and armor thickness expert I'd like to know how to figure out at what ranges, etc, there's a point in opening fire?

RIght now my 76 mm Soviet AT-gun sees two Panthers 1100 meters away and I'm guessing it's pointless to open up, but how do I know for sure?

[chuckdyke]

4 minutes ago, Sven said:

RIght now my 76 mm Soviet AT-gun sees two Panthers 1100 meters away and I'm guessing it's pointless to open up, but how do I know for sure?

Don't fire the odds are you will miss. Below 1000mtr at the side armor. Always have an exit tactic. Tip: position above a foxhole the crew when hiding will go to the bottom of the foxhole. The 76mm Russian was made to deal with MarkIII and MarkIV. Against the Panther it is side armor only. 

[Sven]

43 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Don't fire the odds are you will miss. Below 1000mtr at the side armor. Always have an exit tactic. Tip: position above a foxhole the crew when hiding will go to the bottom of the foxhole. The 76mm Russian was made to deal with MarkIII and MarkIV. Against the Panther it is side armor only. 

Thank you, I thought so.

However, how do you find out this kind of stuff without trial and error? Is there anyway to calculate from numbers and/or colors inside the game?

Edited April 7, 2021 by Sven

[chuckdyke]

@Sven the race of German and Russian against each other. 76mm knocks out a PzrIV at 1500mtrs from the front. Against a Tiger or Panther no chance. 

[Bulletpoint]

46 minutes ago, Sven said:

how do you find out this kind of stuff without trial and error? Is there anyway to calculate from numbers and/or colors inside the game?

There's no tool inside the game, but here is one online that helps. I find its results are very close to what you see in the game - not 100 pct though, as the game takes more factors into account than the calculator.

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/pencalc/

 

 

 

[Glubokii Boy]

If you are familuar with how the QB-battles work it is VERY EASY to set up simple testgames vs yourself (hotseat)...

pick the gun/guns you would like to test on one side and a number of different AFVs on the other...and then fire away and watch the results.

 

[Sven]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

There's no tool inside the game, but here is one online that helps. I find its results are very close to what you see in the game - not 100 pct though, as the game takes more factors into account than the calculator.

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/pencalc/

 

 

 

Thank you!

[Sven]

@Glubokii Boy   Yes, I guess I could do that. Just thought I'd ask first.

Actually. I've played the game for ages, yet never used QB.

[Glubokii Boy]

I regularelly don't use it either...it's a pure H2H feature imo...the AI strugles at times in regular scenarios but even more so in QBs...

I use it only to test various equipment and for this purpose it works very well and is quick and easy to set up...

'Lycka till på slagfältet '

[Sven]

3 hours ago, Glubokii Boy said:

I regularelly don't use it either...it's a pure H2H feature imo...the AI strugles at times in regular scenarios but even more so in QBs...

I use it only to test various equipment and for this purpose it works very well and is quick and easy to set up...

'Lycka till på slagfältet '

Tack.
Jag spelar mest mot samma motståndare och har ständigt bekymmer med AT-kanonerna, åt bägge håll. 

[BornGinger]

On 4/7/2021 at 2:35 PM, Glubokii Boy said:

Lycka till på slagfältet '

 

On 4/7/2021 at 6:27 PM, Sven said:

Tack.
Jag spelar mest mot samma motståndare och har ständigt bekymmer med AT-kanonerna, åt bägge håll. 

I wonder how many of different nationalities there are active on this forum. If I'm correct there is at least one more Swede, at least one Danish who's busy doing mods, at least two Russians, some Australians and New Zealanders and then loads of Britts, Canadians and people from USA.

Edited April 9, 2021 by BornGinger

[chuckdyke]

Play Gog Magog in Red Thunder and you see the 76mm Russian is still doing some damage against the King Tiger. In every battle apply the combined arms principle. AT guns like any other weapon shouldn't act on their own. 

[Sven]

1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

Play Gog Magog in Red Thunder and you see the 76mm Russian is still doing some damage against the King Tiger. In every battle apply the combined arms principle. AT guns like any other weapon shouldn't act on their own. 

That's the one we're at and that's why I'm concerned. I just spotted my enemy's first tanks and no shots have been fired yet. Also considering whether to push my tanks forward or leave them in reserve for a while until I know what and where I'm up against his.

(Actually, I didn't know there would be King Tigers, though I did expect plenty of enemy firepower).

Edited April 9, 2021 by Sven

[chuckdyke]

5 minutes ago, Sven said:

Actually, I didn't know there would be King Tigers, though I did expect plenty of enemy firepower

*Spoiler* The King Tiger has superior optics compared with its nemesis the JS2. I think this is the strategy of the scenario designer, damage optics and communication of the big cats. So that the Russian Heavies will deny them the objectives. The Russian 76mm ATG are in foxholes the flat trajectories of the German 88mm and even the 75mm L70 can't kill hiding Russian ATG crew. The Germans need their artillery and more important their 120mm mortars to be effective. The 75mm L48 of the Pzr4 is also more effective against ATGs. Hope you play against a human opponent as defender. The German tactic was called a Panzer Keil translate a tank wedge. Tigers are shielding their weaker brothers. As attacker I used this tactic also had an artillery plan, Light on Long adjust once priority targets reveal themselves. You have an experienced spotter and a veteran spotter. Use the veteran spotter on the right flank. 

[Chibot Mk IX]

On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2021 at 5:08 AM, chuckdyke said:

@Sven the race of German and Russian against each other. 76mm knocks out a PzrIV at 1500mtrs from the front. Against a Tiger or Panther no chance. 

it depends , 76mm ZIS-3 can knock out a PzIVD at 1500m. but will have trouble against a Pz IV H. It won't be able to penetrate IVH's front hull unless at very close range.  

[Bulletpoint]

5 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

it depends , 76mm ZIS-3 can knock out a PzIVD at 1500m. but will have trouble against a Pz IV H. It won't be able to penetrate IVH's front hull unless at very close range.  

However, in CM, it will usually hit the turret front, knocking out the PzIV H just as easily.

[chuckdyke]

8 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

76mm ZIS-3 can knock out a PzIVD at 1500m. but will have trouble against a Pz IV H

You obviously didn't serve as an AT Gunner at the Eastern front and neither did I. It was when people called a Pz IV a Tiger let alone telling the variations of German tanks apart. 

[Artkin]

I thought that was just a Normandy thing. 

Anyway the 76mm Zis 3 aint penetrating nuttin. The gun is only useful vs PzIV and lesser. Opening up on a panther will just have your guns get blasted. I would hold off for as long as possible and go for a flank shot..... Theyre seriously useless

[John Kettler]

On 4/7/2021 at 3:42 AM, Sven said:

How do I calculate whether there's a point in firing or not? Since I'm not a gun and armor thickness expert I'd like to know how to figure out at what ranges, etc, there's a point in opening fire?

RIght now my 76 mm Soviet AT-gun sees two Panthers 1100 meters away and I'm guessing it's pointless to open up, but how do I know for sure?

Doctrinal open fire range for the ZIS-3 was 750 meters and 500 meters for the 45 mm M1937 and M1942. IN the latter case, the weapon was accurate enough to target specific parts of the tank, such as tracks. The Red Army philosophy was to hold fire until a high hit probability would result, the idea being to open with surprise fire and then pour it on until the foe broke or the battery was blown up or overrun. See Drabkin's excellent Panzer Killers for more information.

Regards,

John Kettler



 

[John Kettler]

The standard Russian ATG battery deployment was a "L"  shaped one, with a 3-gun gun line as the killing power and a gun on either the left or right flank  and about 50 meters ahead of the gun line to open fire first to force the attacking Panzers to turn toward it, opening up their flanks to attack from the gun line. That key gun was not a good place to be if you wanted to live (not that life expectancy was at all good on ATGs!), because not only did it draw terrible return fire, but many were simply driven over, crushing gun and crew. Unlike in the Sacred War video where the ATGs are super close, the actual spacing between guns could be as much as a whopping 300 meters, though 150-200 was more typical. In close terrain, of course, ranges were reduced, as they were in particularly noisy environments. Frankly, I have no idea how anyone could shout 300 meters and be heard (voice was primary means of control), so believe the open fire and cease fire would be tied to a flag command or maybe a flare being fired.  Source again is Panzer Killers, so be sure to recheck the gun interval distances. Am pretty sure I got them right, though. The info is in the part dealing with the Destroyer units (towed ATGs and tank-killing SUs).

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited April 16, 2021 by John Kettler

[Erwin]

48 minutes ago, John Kettler said:

Russian ATG battery deployment was a "L"  shaped one, with a 3-gun gun line as the killing power and a gun on either the left or right flank  and about 50 meters ahead of the gun line

It makes one realize how seldom, if ever, do we get to simulate RL tactics like that in the game.  I can't recall ever having 4 ATG's in any CM2 scenario.  I think we may have seen that more in CM1 as we were able to have Regimental-sized forces on each side.

[chuckdyke]

48 minutes ago, John Kettler said:

Frankly, I have no idea how anyone could shout 300 meters and be heard (voice was primary means of control), so believe the open fire and cease fire would be tied to a flag command or maybe a flare being fired.

Field-Telephone lines like a static defense as in Kursk were run out. C2 in regards of the defender should take this into account. The Soviet Army was excellent in defense this may have been one of the reasons. 

[Vergeltungswaffe]

2 hours ago, Erwin said:

I can't recall ever having 4 ATG's in any CM2 scenario.

Interesting. I've played quite a few scenarios with 4 or more.

RT and FI come to mind as having a number of them.

[MikeyD]

I recall the British pretty early in the North Africa campaign conducted a survey and found that during a major operation their AT guns got off perhaps six shots before being destroyed. Of course there are the ones that died having never fires a shot, and a small number that performed heroic feats. But typically it was 6 shots then BOOM. Of course early in the war we're talking [2] pounders. US in Normandy fielded entire towed anti-tank battalions but due the the nature of the terrain only managed to kill (I think the number was) fourteen vehicles total, if that. CM Normandy wouldn't be doing classic Pak fronts because LOS wasn't usually more than the next hedgerow.

Edited April 16, 2021 by MikeyD

[chuckdyke]

8 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

Of course early in the war we're talking 4 pounders.

I think you meant 2 pounder or the 37 mm caliber. Towed AT guns were obsolete by wars end probably before that. 17 pounder about typical an excellent AT Gun but to deploy takes a considerable time. By 1944 the allies engaged in pursuit tactics, so their AT Guns were deployed on tracks. Soviet SU 85 and SU 100 were tank-killers and can be compared with the German SP Guns.