F&R Inspiration

[herr_oberst]

Been re-reading "Decision in the Ukraine, Summer 1943, II SS and III Panzerkorps", and have scanned maps (L-37-6-B Dmitrijewka, 1939-ish) from the archives at the Library of Congress.

Time to finally break down and try to create a Campaign based around Aug., 1, 1943. Tons of action in the book as the Germans try/push the Russians back across the Mius. First comes the map work. Probably multiple master maps as the scope of the battles spans from east of Gerassimova to south of Marinovka, some 10km by 10km, at least at first blush. First up, where to divide the map?

[Aragorn2002]

3 hours ago, herr_oberst said:

Been re-reading "Decision in the Ukraine, Summer 1943, II SS and III Panzerkorps", and have scanned maps (L-37-6-B Dmitrijewka, 1939-ish) from the archives at the Library of Congress.

Time to finally break down and try to create a Campaign based around Aug., 1, 1943. Tons of action in the book as the Germans try/push the Russians back across the Mius. First comes the map work. Probably multiple master maps as the scope of the battles spans from east of Gerassimova to south of Marinovka, some 10km by 10km, at least at first blush. First up, where to divide the map?

Very interested! For me personally even more interesting than Kursk. Nipe's book is first class.

[JM Stuff]

Look interresting !

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Yes, I've always had more interest in this than Kursk as well.

Quite an undertaking.

Looking forward to your efforts!

[Vacillator]

I agree, would be great.  Although the title of the thread is perhaps not quite right?  This is before Red Thunder, never mind F&R?

[Dan Dare]

4 minutes ago, Vacilllator said:

This is before Red Thunder, never mind F&R?

PzIIIs maybe?

[Vacillator]

1 minute ago, Dan Dare said:

PzIIIs maybe?

Would be nice, who doesn't like a PzIII? 

Except perhaps some poor guys who had to fight in them a bit after technology had moved on .

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, Vacilllator said:

fight in them a bit after technology had moved on .

not moved much yet in summer of 1943...

[Artkin]

You want a hand? I do not like doing topography, but I'll happily kit the map out with buildings for you, or contribute wherever dumb labor is needed.

Summer 1943 sounds like Panzer ausf. Ds and panzer 4's for the eastern front. I imagine they had the newest kit and the majority of reinforcements. Youtuber TIK covers a lot of these battles in depth. I'll keep an eye out for this region as I dig through his fantastic vids more.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Artkin

[Dan Dare]

If you refer to panther D and if I am correct, in early August 43 only at GD, later the same moth DR (22 of August, to late for the 1st of August battles I guess ) which recovered their I.Abt equiped with  71 panthers, then 26 PzD, then 13PzD, and so on.....and ofcourse...in Italy early in August AH. 

On August 1, as an example, TK PzR reported some command tanks (no gun), 3 Tigers, 11 PzIVs & 5 PzIIIs operationals, ...TK will not receive panthers till the end of 1943.

[herr_oberst]

Inspiration? F&R coming out, soon-ish, CMCW soon-ish, and going slightly stir-crazy for world-wide reasons...

First pass of map work roughly done for a “Regiment Eicke” assault towards Gerassimova (6k x 3k, so its big). Contour line mapping yields a map that looks, well, poor. Probably have to monkey with it a bunch. The terrain is replete with ravines off west side of the valley that don’t render particularly well. Not to mention streams building to a river — probably hint at the streams using marsh/some other terrain tile on the sloped portions until they reach the valley floor-ish and the terrain is relatively flat.

I’ll probably make a second attempt at mapping that uses “ridges vs ravines” and see how that looks.

I think that terrain will have a significant effect on play, which is a piece of this battle that has always intrigued me.

 

[Dan Dare]

In google maps, from Saur-Mohyla (some 2km to the west and which have a monument that I don´t know if it is related to these battles) you could have some photos that could be handy for the terrain...

Edited April 4, 2021 by Dan Dare

[Dan Dare]

or better street view from Dimitrivka ...you have 2 or three spots around

[Artkin]

From a random forum on the 3rd SS panzergren div:

"#19

Post by jfannon13 » 28 Sep 2006, 05:29

Check out the following. "Wie ein fels im mer" and the englis txt title "Like a cliff on the Ocean" Best books ever. The german title is the photo album for the division and offers many strength tables for verious points in the war. A definate for any would be re-enactor. As well the english Txt version has some good photos and incredible info. Check it out."

Edited April 4, 2021 by Artkin

[Artkin]

2 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

If you refer to panther D and if I am correct, in early August 43 only at GD, later the same moth DR (22 of August, to late for the 1st of August battles I guess ) which recovered their I.Abt equiped with  71 panthers, then 26 PzD, then 13PzD, and so on.....and ofcourse...in Italy early in August AH. 

On August 1, as an example, TK PzR reported some command tanks (no gun), 3 Tigers, 11 PzIVs & 5 PzIIIs operationals, ...TK will not receive panthers till the end of 1943.

Alright yeah I wouldn't know that much but those numbers definitely sound like eastern front numbers LOL

[herr_oberst]

Yup, earlier stuff. Fewer big cats. IIRC, Nipe mentions something akin to “Of the 8 Tigers, 4 were serviceable.” The rest were MkIV or III-ish.

”Assault on Hill 213.9 - The Death Ride of SS Panzer Regiment 3.”  - Might not be popular to enter a scenario where “less death” is the win (some touch objectives in the early stuff, winning happens later), but I’m thinking historical/educational, not “appease the “I have to win every scenario” gamers”.

[Erwin]

If the stated objective to "win" is less casualties than was historical one can always  adjust the victory points so that even if one loses a lot, so long as you do better than historically the game can award you a "win".

[Aragorn2002]

On 4/4/2021 at 12:35 AM, Artkin said:

You want a hand? I do not like doing topography, but I'll happily kit the map out with buildings for you, or contribute wherever dumb labor is needed.

Summer 1943 sounds like Panzer ausf. Ds and panzer 4's for the eastern front. I imagine they had the newest kit and the majority of reinforcements. Youtuber TIK covers a lot of these battles in depth. I'll keep an eye out for this region as I dig through his fantastic vids more.

Can you post a link please?

Soldaten, Kaempfer, Kameraden is another excellent source for Totenkopf.

I remember someone once made a typical Ukrainian cottage for CMBB. White wall, thatched roof. Excellent little mod.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Aragorn2002

[herr_oberst]

Still working on terraforming my “Regiment Eicke” map... the attack southeast down towards Gerassimova.
Cutting the number of points in almost all the contours (roughly 1/5 the density).
Flat eliminating some contours in dense areas to get rid of the stair-step effect in the rendered map, letting the engine do its thing.
It’s a tedious process, but made a tad easier by dropping an 8-story building where I’m working so I can zoom right there in the 3-d view to see how the terrain rendering is working out.
Placing some deep marsh for streams that need to follow the land contours to help with visuals/map orientation.

Once this is done, roads and buildings will be next.

[Artkin]

On 4/5/2021 at 4:22 AM, Aragorn2002 said:

Can you post a link please?

My bad he covers others like Crusader, Stalingrad, Arnhem, Courland, and assorted Eastern Front stuff but no 1943. :l my bad.

[Aragorn2002]

On 4/4/2021 at 11:36 PM, herr_oberst said:

Yup, earlier stuff. Fewer big cats. IIRC, Nipe mentions something akin to “Of the 8 Tigers, 4 were serviceable.” The rest were MkIV or III-ish.

”Assault on Hill 213.9 - The Death Ride of SS Panzer Regiment 3.”  - Might not be popular to enter a scenario where “less death” is the win (some touch objectives in the early stuff, winning happens later), but I’m thinking historical/educational, not “appease the “I have to win every scenario” gamers”.

That. My sentiments exactly. Historical realism is much more important than balance.

[herr_oberst]

So I'm a dummy... got the email, downloaded F&R, installed... without doing a TimeMachine backup first.

F&R is in, and activated, but my 'Regiment Eicke' map is gone the way of the Dodo...

Rule #1: Never split attention between work and CM goodness. Important steps get forgotten.

[Redwolf]

2 hours ago, herr_oberst said:

So I'm a dummy... got the email, downloaded F&R, installed... without doing a TimeMachine backup first.

F&R is in, and activated, but my 'Regiment Eicke' map is gone the way of the Dodo...

Rule #1: Never split attention between work and CM goodness. Important steps get forgotten.

On a Mac, installing the new *.pkg file seems to clear out all files not in the original distribution, namely savegames and scenarios. Happened to me.

Back up your tree before upgrading.

[Vet 0369]

On 4/23/2021 at 7:03 PM, Redwolf said:

On a Mac, installing the new *.pkg file seems to clear out all files not in the original distribution, namely savegames and scenarios. Happened to me.

Back up your tree before upgrading.

I just installed F&R on my mid-2010 MacPro and didn’t lose a thing. When asked for my install path, I specified my Combat Missions directory on a drive where I keep all my games. It’s installer created a new “Applications” directory, and put the new CMRT in that Applications directory. Then I dragged the new one out of the Applications directory and dropped it into my CMRT directory (I have a specific directory for every Combat Mission game). It replaced the old files with the new ones, but left my existing Data, Mods, and zCMRT directories alone except for the new files. Or, at least that’s how I remember doing it.

[Aragorn2002]

On 4/23/2021 at 10:15 PM, herr_oberst said:

So I'm a dummy... got the email, downloaded F&R, installed... without doing a TimeMachine backup first.

F&R is in, and activated, but my 'Regiment Eicke' map is gone the way of the Dodo...

Rule #1: Never split attention between work and CM goodness. Important steps get forgotten.

That sucks, Herr Oberst. Must be very, very frustrating. I hope there's a way to recover your map.

I have several copies of all CM games on my pc and made one of my basic CMRT before installing FR on top of it, removed all my mods and didn't loose anything.