Thoughts on gun setup?

[mjkerner]

1 hour ago, IanL said:

Cover ars are for when you don't want guns to fire. Do you want your AT gun to fire on tanks? I'm betting you do. Don't place a cover arc on an AT gun.

Why, Ian?  I put armor covered arcs on AT guns often so they don't reveal themselves to enemies (armor or infantry) by firing on bloody infantry when I plan to use them on what they were made to kill.

[Erwin]

Quote

2 hours ago, mjkerner said:

Why, Ian?  I put armor covered arcs on AT guns often so they don't reveal themselves to enemies (armor or infantry) by firing on bloody infantry when I plan to use them on what they were made to kill.

 

Yes, you may want to gun to wait until the enemy moves as to show its weak flank.  A wedge arc is invaluable.

[Freyberg]

On 4/1/2021 at 12:59 AM, Sven said:

How does the AI place its guns?

With occasional aberrations, the AI places guns extremely well. It seems to have an algo that checks LOS and LOF across the whole map very carefully. At its best, it uses depressions for cover, terrain features for concealment and clever keyholing.

If you have time, it's worth setting up a couple of QBs in play-test mode, just to see how it does it.

[BornGinger]

I have done the same as @mjkernerand @Erwinwith AT-guns.

In my first H2H game, Chaumont First Round, I had very good success with keeping my AT-guns in hiding with cover arcs and returning them into hiding when they weren't to be used. The US player has 22 tanks in that scenario and I shot down all but five or six that way.

Although my opponent for a long time were shooting in the directions where the guns were he didn't manage to hit the correct spot because he didn't see them as they were in hiding.

It was only when I decided to move one of them, and as we know moving an AT-gun is very slow in the game although WW2 footage shows that moving an AT-gun can be done quite quickly, my opponent managed to kill the crew for that gun.

[Lethaface]

I think most of it depends on the context. In general AT guns have good effect against tanks and good range  but not so good protection, so having them far back in keyholed positions (relative safe) with good fields of fire at locations where you expect enemy armor will maneuver helps them actually being able to fire at tanks before they die.   

Armour cover arcs can be used to control the ideal moment of opening fire. Sometimes it can be interesting to hold fire for a bit, if only with the goal to deceive the enemy that the area is safe while it isn't. Armour arcs will also prevent them unmasking to fire at infantry unwanted.

Also often players will scout with infantry first, so during that time it can be helpful to hide the AT gun; minimizing the chance of being discovered without having fired a shot.

However these are all situational. There aren't always good keyhole positions far back. Sometimes you'll want the AT guns to be part of the front defense and try to achieve fire superiority from the get go instead of letting enemies get closer. Sometimes you'll want them to fire HE at infantry at will. etc

So the best way to setup your AT guns is imo to first decide what role you want them to play in your defense based off the terrain, objectives and enemy forces. Where do you expect enemy tanks to advance and where do you want to engage them? Do you want to deny them any form of overwatch (disallowing combined arms action), or do you want to let them come forward and engage enemy tanks while they are facing somewhere else? Etc

Thinking about of those things and answering the questions with the specific battle in mind will answer most questions regarding where and how to ideally setup your guns, whether to use (armor) arcs and or hide and when to change those orders. 

If you can't prevent or detect enemy infantry scouting close to your AT guns (~couple of hundred meters), they will probably get scouted by infantry anyway (even if hiding) and good chance of mortars incoming sooner rather than later. So in that case hiding and arcs might not be that useful, as there is little merit in trying to hide it; might be better of trying to dish out (area) fire wherever possible. 

[A Canadian Cat]

21 hours ago, mjkerner said:

Why, Ian?  I put armor covered arcs on AT guns often so they don't reveal themselves to enemies (armor or infantry) by firing on bloody infantry when I plan to use them on what they were made to kill.

Oops you hit on the one exception that I totally forgot about. Yes, a full circle 3000m armour cover arc is appropriate for AT guns. I do do that from time to time with AT assets to avoid as you said.

[A Canadian Cat]

4 hours ago, Lethaface said:

<snip>Armour arcs will also prevent them unmasking to fire at infantry unwanted.

Yep, I missed mentioning that I would recommend that in many situations. What I do is make sure it is a 360degree 3000m (or enough to cover the whole map) armoured cover arc. After all you don't want them to not fire on a tank. Except for...

4 hours ago, Lethaface said:

However these are all situational. <snip>

An excellent point and overall more good advice here.

[Lethaface]

28 minutes ago, IanL said:

Yep, I missed mentioning that I would recommend that in many situations. What I do is make sure it is a 360degree 3000m (or enough to cover the whole map) armoured cover arc. After all you don't want them to not fire on a tank. Except for...

A too small of an arc can indeed be very fatal lol, however often I use more specific (armour) arcs against area's where I know/expect enemy tanks or limit the arc to a certain range. Opening up at 2km might just alert your opponent, causing him to fall back his tanks and call in mortars on your AT gun. 

[Bulletpoint]

On 4/2/2021 at 2:23 AM, Freyberg said:

With occasional aberrations, the AI places guns extremely well. It seems to have an algo that checks LOS and LOF across the whole map very carefully. At its best, it uses depressions for cover, terrain features for concealment and clever keyholing.

I respect your opinion, but I must say my impression has been different.

[Bulletpoint]

On 4/1/2021 at 9:46 PM, mjkerner said:

Why, Ian?  I put armor covered arcs on AT guns often so they don't reveal themselves to enemies (armor or infantry) by firing on bloody infantry when I plan to use them on what they were made to kill.

I'm not Ian, but it all depends on what you want to achieve. If you make your gun HIDE, it won't fire on infantry, it will stay concealed better, but it will spot worse. If you use a cover arc but without HIDE, your gun will not fire on infantry either, it will spot better, but be less concealed. It all depends on what you want.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Bulletpoint

[mjkerner]

Exactly, which is why I originally asked him about what appeared to be a pretty rigid stance on the matter.

[Sven]

Speaking about AT-guns. How do I calculate at which range to open fire? Is there anyway of knowing?

Right now my 76mm Soviet AT-guns see two Panthers at 1100 meters, for example.