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Thoughts on gun setup?


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How do you deploy / setup your guns the best way? Is it to place a short arc in front of it, hide it or leave it like it is? 

I never seem to figure out which way is the best.

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Well, you need to set an onmap gun in a location that won't get it killed by enemy fire - at least 350 meters from enemy inf, preferably much further.  And also even better if it is keyholed so it can shoot at one particular target without getting shot at from many enemy positions.  I like to set up units on HIDE as they are less likely to get spotted and can UNHIDE immediately as needed.  

The arc will determine whether it fires as soon as it sees an enemy, or if you want it to hold fire.

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6 hours ago, Erwin said:

Well, you need to set an onmap gun in a location that won't get it killed by enemy fire - at least 350 meters from enemy inf, preferably much further.  And also even better if it is keyholed so it can shoot at one particular target without getting shot at from many enemy positions.  I like to set up units on HIDE as they are less likely to get spotted and can UNHIDE immediately as needed.  

The arc will determine whether it fires as soon as it sees an enemy, or if you want it to hold fire.

To clarify I'm referring to AT Guns. I'd like to put them in HIDING, but don't they spot much worse then?

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43 minutes ago, Sven said:

To clarify I'm referring to AT Guns. I'd like to put them in HIDING, but don't they spot much worse then?

In the beginning of a game an AT gun is supposed to be camouflaged. It is recommended to position an ATG in a foxhole. If you go into hiding in a foxhole the crew is deemed to cover in the bottom of the foxhole. When you put a unit into hiding on the left corner you see clearly what the hiding unit is doing. Make sure their HQ is in a tactically correct position. 

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51 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

In the beginning of a game an AT gun is supposed to be camouflaged. It is recommended to position an ATG in a foxhole. If you go into hiding in a foxhole the crew is deemed to cover in the bottom of the foxhole. When you put a unit into hiding on the left corner you see clearly what the hiding unit is doing. Make sure their HQ is in a tactically correct position. 

It seems I've never read the rules enough. :)

You mean if the HQ can spot, so can the gun?

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33 minutes ago, Sven said:

You mean if the HQ can spot, so can the gun?

Firepower is Observation and Communication and the Fire Position. The HQ gets the intel and if you set it up properly the ATG's wil get the contact icon. Your first hit probability will increase. Make sure they are in contact with their HQ. They are not rules, but micromanaging the game is the key to success. Example a Sherman spots a Tiger the strength of a Sherman Tank is the Radio and its Optics. The strength of the US in WW2 was communications. Your C2 will enable that the ATGs and their HQ will get the Contact Icon of the Sherman. You will enable Armor Cover Arcs at the right time and the right spot. The Sherman no longer fights alone vs a better armed and armored AFV. Contact icons increases the odds of a hit vs a miss. Your observation, radio and fire positions should be near each other but not in the same position. The Soviets were the worse equipped with radios compared with the western allies and Germany. The US was at the time state of the art. 

Edited by chuckdyke
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

Firepower is Observation and Communication and the Fire Position. The HQ gets the intel and if you set it up properly the ATG's wil get the contact icon. Your first hit probability will increase. Make sure they are in contact with their HQ. They are not rules, but micromanaging the game is the key to success. Example a Sherman spots a Tiger the strength of a Sherman Tank is the Radio and its Optics. The strength of the US in WW2 was communications. Your C2 will enable that the ATGs and their HQ will get the Contact Icon of the Sherman. You will enable Armor Cover Arcs at the right time and the right spot. The Sherman no longer fights alone vs a better armed and armored AFV. Contact icons increases the odds of a hit vs a miss. Your observation, radio and fire positions should be near each other but not in the same position. The Soviets were the worse equipped with radios compared with the western allies and Germany. The US was at the time state of the art. 

Thank you. I never realised that the game works that way, despite playing it for so long. Guns in hiding it is then, with their HQ nearby in a good position.

Edited by Sven
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15 minutes ago, Sven said:

Thank you. I never realised that the game works that way, despite playing it for so long. Guns in hiding it is, then, with their HQ nearby in a good position.

You're welcome to play Elite or Iron if you don't play it already, it is not for everybody. The important thing is to have fun, once an ATG moves or fires the camouflage no longer applies (You need forest or a heavy shrub environment). Recommended position above a foxhole the crew on hide will be save. C2 are the key I found a unit with a contact icon of the other will get the first shot in. German ATGs are deadly at over 1km but once spotted they are on borrowed time. 

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3 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Firepower is Observation and Communication and the Fire Position. The HQ gets the intel and if you set it up properly the ATG's wil get the contact icon. Your first hit probability will increase. Make sure they are in contact with their HQ. They are not rules, but micromanaging the game is the key to success. Example a Sherman spots a Tiger the strength of a Sherman Tank is the Radio and its Optics. The strength of the US in WW2 was communications. Your C2 will enable that the ATGs and their HQ will get the Contact Icon of the Sherman. You will enable Armor Cover Arcs at the right time and the right spot. The Sherman no longer fights alone vs a better armed and armored AFV. Contact icons increases the odds of a hit vs a miss. Your observation, radio and fire positions should be near each other but not in the same position. The Soviets were the worse equipped with radios compared with the western allies and Germany. The US was at the time state of the art. 

Probability of spotting increases, not probability of hitting. You can increase probability of hitting by placing a TRP in the expected engagement zone.

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My

20 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

That's because it doesn't work that way. Getting a contact icon gives you a bonus to spotting the enemy, not hitting him.

I understood the reply this way. Is it wrong?

1. Leaving the AT-Gun in hiding makes it harder to spot...
2 ...but if the gun is in contact with its HQ, the HQ can spot the target and reveal it for the gun as well?
3. Hit chances are unchanged.

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10 minutes ago, Sven said:

My

I understood the reply this way. Is it wrong?

1. Leaving the AT-Gun in hiding makes it harder to spot...
2 ...but if the gun is in contact with its HQ, the HQ can spot the target and reveal it for the gun as well?
3. Hit chances are unchanged.

1: correct

2: correct - but the gun won't come out of hiding to engage because the HQ spots the target

3: correct

 

Of course it is an advantage that the gun already has a contact marker when you manually click to unhide it. But this contact marker can also come from any other unit nearby. Ammo bearers or even just a regular scout team.

HQ units have binoculars, so they are a bit better, but this is a theoretical advantage - vehicles are spotted very well at very long distances even without binoculars.

Edited by Bulletpoint
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OK. If so, we're back to my original question... what's the best way to set it up? In hiding or with a small arc and not in hiding or place it like it is?

How does the AI place its guns?

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4 minutes ago, Sven said:

original question... what's the best way to set it up? In hiding or with a small arc and not in hiding or place it like it is?

If you want to choose when to open fire: In cover with the HIDE option. No need for a small arc. That's only if you want a chance for the gun to come out of hiding on its own.

If you want the gun to fire immediately when spotting a target: in cover without the hide option.

4 minutes ago, Sven said:

How does the AI place its guns?

Randomly within the zone painted by the human designer. However, not completely randomly: it will tend to choose a spot with some kind of concealment.

Edited by Bulletpoint
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2 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

In cover with the HIDE option. No need for a small arc. That's only if you want a chance for the gun to come out of hiding on its own.

Randomly within the zone painted by the human designer. However, not completely randomly: it will tend to choose a spot with some kind of concealment.


And you find the gun's spotting sufficient? (And that the enemy units don't spot the gun?).

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6 minutes ago, Sven said:


And you find the gun's spotting sufficient? (And that the enemy units don't spot the gun?).

When using HIDE, the gun spots much worse. But it can sometimes spot something.

When not using hide, it spots very well.

 

AT guns stay hidden extremely well. I believe they are completely unspottable at a certain range if they are in terrain with decent concealment.

I did some testings where I moved a tank closer and closer to a hidden gun to see what range it would get spotted at. It seems a hard limit, but it depends on many things.

As far as I remember from my experiment, if my tank was just outside the magic range, I could let it sit for a half hour and it would spot nothing. But then if I moved it forward just 10m, it would suddenly spot the gun within half a minute.

My conclusion: spotting AT guns is not about spending a long time spotting at long range, but getting closer than a certain distance, OR whether the gun fires or not.

Edited by Bulletpoint
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And also wot I mentioned earlier:  Better if the gun is in a keyholed location - so it can shoot at one particular target or location without fear of immediately getting shot at from many enemy positions after it fires and exposes its position. 

For ATG's, setting the gun up so it can take flank shots at enemy armor is also highly desirable as armor is weaker there and the tank doesn't spot as well to its own flanks (or rear).

Edited by Erwin
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On 3/31/2021 at 12:02 AM, Erwin said:

I like to set up units on HIDE as they are less likely to get spotted and can UNHIDE immediately as needed. 

... and then return them to hide with a fire arc when they have shot at the enemy object and aren't to be used until the next enemy object shows up.

Edited by BornGinger
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12 hours ago, Sven said:

How does the AI place its guns?

If you are talking about quick battles and would like to know how the AT-guns are being placed by the AI in a quick battle, you can start to play one in scenario author mode and choose the AI to use a bunch of AT-guns. When you start to play the battle you can have a look how the AI positioned them.

If you talk about whether the AI use hidden mode with fire arc in quick battles, I think only those who wrote the code for the game engine knows the answer to that.

If it is a scenario, the one who made the scenario decides how the AT-gun behaves from the beginning of the scenario until it sees an enemy object it has been told to wait for (enemy armour or enemy anything). As soon as the AT-gun has shot at the first enemy object it's supposed to wait for I think we come back to the question what the game engine's code tells it to do. The AT-gun is either coded to go back in hiding and wait just as it did according to what the scenario designer told it to do or it stays unhidden and waits to be shot down.

Edited by BornGinger
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On 3/31/2021 at 7:59 AM, Sven said:

OK. If so, we're back to my original question... what's the best way to set it up? In hiding or with a small arc and not in hiding or place it like it is?

Cover ars are for when you don't want guns to fire. Do you want your AT gun to fire on tanks? I'm betting you do. Don't place a cover arc on an AT gun.

Hiding reduces your chance of spotting. Do you want your AT guns to miss tanks that come into its LOF? I'm betting you do not. Don't hide your AT guns.

The thing to keep in mind for keeping AT guns alive is keyhole positions, good concealment and some cover. Position your gun so that it has LOF over a fairly small but important area. Make sure they are not out in the open. Having their HQ in a location that they can see more is a good thing. Having your AT guns know what's coming before they enter their LOF is a good thing(TM).

On 3/31/2021 at 7:59 AM, Sven said:

How does the AI place its guns?

Often not as well as above.

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On 3/30/2021 at 7:22 PM, wadepm said:

Set them up in cover on hide with a very short arc.  Never touch them again.  They might survive...

In case you guys missed it - this is hilarious!

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