How to - Recon with AFV's?

[SimpleSimon]

 

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@SimpleSimon

I served with PzAufklBtl 1 of the German Bundeswehr from 1979 to '83 and as far as I know, in '79 (Heeresstruktur 3) it was organised and had the same doctrine like its counterparts at the Wehrmacht from 1944 on.

A pleasure. Do you happen to know what the Infantry Divisions would typically have in the way of a recon? How it was configured etc? Were they expected to behave differently from their armored counterparts? 

I guess the doctrine split could be expressed as "Russian School" and "African School" and was influenced a bit by the way in which German Officers observed the Russians using tanks in their recon squadrons. What better way to shut down the enemy's recon than to just kill it right? That's the Red Army for you. "All or Nothing". It's not that the Russians didn't do recon, it's just that when they did it was pushed quite aggressively and seriously or just not done at all. 

The Sherman was favored for this job because its mobility and rubberized tracks made it a great road cruiser-the Valentine was also handy because it was tiny. Both of them were becoming surplus as the war went late...

It doesn't seem that armored recon in the Red Army was ever up to local or Division Commanders though, it was a General HQ asset. Although there was always a Division/Corp recon group-it seems to have been quite small. The Russians had a very atypical approach to battlefield intelligence gathering it seems. They didn't seem to value it much since they figured it was a waste of time-the Front's assault was meticulously researched at higher levels and all they want subordinates to do is execute time tables without much thought as to whatever is in their way. This kind of top-down imposition of control is still pretty alien to western observers who see the "two way street" of interaction, communication, and feedback between commanders and subordinates. 

So i'm to take it that "African School" of doctrine resembles something much like the lighter armored-car and infantry style reconnaissance of the early war period. You're not expecting to fight predominantly-just find the path of least resistance. So it's pretty handy when you've got something like the Luchs that can sneak through someone's backyard and give no hint of its presence until you see the tire tracks it left over the rose garden next morning. 

Off-topic a bit but the Americans seem to have generally rolled up reconnaissance into the Combat Commands-which operated in theory like Kampgruppen but not nearly as well in practice due to the way the Americans seem to have been unable to divorce themselves from old Cavalry traditions. Kampgrupper were tailored formations designed to match a highly specific scenario-Combat Commands existed for their own sake and about the best they managed a lot was...not getting killed? Since they were Armored and Mechanized they were hard to kill but if they ran into something like a full-strength Infantry Division they were too small to overrun it and most of the time their story ends with "withdrew to own lines-reattached to Division and fought as 7th Armored". Anyway I promised myself i'd stop looking for opportunities to roast the Combat Commands but here I go lol. 

Edited April 3, 2021 by SimpleSimon

[RMM]

I look forward to those scenarios .. and purchasing RT! 

Gonna indulge in my latest purchase of FB for a bit first though

[hank24]

Aufklärungsabteilung (AA) of Infantriedivision (with slight variation here and there):

• Staff
• Reiterschwadron (cavalry squadron)
• Radfahrschwadron (bicycles)
• Schwere Schwadron (hvy. squadron) with 2 lt. Inf. Geschütz 7,5 cm, 3 PaK 3,7 cm, and 3 lt. Panzerspähwagen (armored car; '39 that was SdKfz 221 (MG), 222 (2 cm), and 223 (Fu = radio with frame aerial). SdKfz 221 was tactically useless and soon relegated to message relay vehicle role.

The AA and Anti-tank battalion were often used as Schnelle Truppen (fast forces) because they were the only ones being at least partly motorised in the InfDiv. Especially for sealing the pockets in Russia.

In '45, the Aufklärungsabteilung was substituted by a Füsilierbataillon, basically a normal grenadier battalion equipped with bicycles.

The AA of InfDiv(mot) were organised like those of the armored divisions I think. I know it of the later war GrenDiv.

 

[hank24]

8 minutes ago, RMM said:

Gonna indulge in my latest purchase of FB for a bit first though

A deep recon Quick Battle can be designed the same way against the US forces in CM:FB as described above.

[RMM]

2 minutes ago, hank24 said:

A deep recon Quick Battle can be designed the same way against the US forces in CM:FB as described above.

I saw someone had posted on Scenario Depot a bunch of FB QB maps/battles, all categorised under different kinds of engagements. Will have to look n see if they did such a setup already.

[hank24]

Schneller Durchbruch eines leichten Spähtrupps. Quick Break-thru of a lt. recon troop.

A Quick Battle with CM:RT. Three light recon troops (lt. Spähtrupps; two eight-wheel SPW each) cross the map Village Forest Meet 056 (1008m x 992m) against a Russian Inf Battalion reduced to third strength to get low force density on map. Two of three troops succeeded, but in the end, a quick break-through was inevitable but nice to watch. Unfortunately, there is no bigger map available as Quick Battle that is suitable to the tactical situation desired here (Studienka has a river and Gog and Magog is devoid of cover).

The AT-guns were just relocating - fortunately.

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by hank24
Typo

[SimpleSimon]

I've considered designing a few scenarios when the module is released that basically incorporate a combination of exit zones and touch objectives to better convey what recon is up to than stuff like the explicit "probe" rules. Exit zones in particular seem very important to me as recon would rarely be camping anywhere for very long. The pressure is to push on forward and outwards and continuously verify the Division's path ahead. As we can see from your demonstration, armored recon need not much concern itself with scattered infantry remnants-probably most the Division won't either. Infantry Divisions in the next echelon can handle that...

[hank24]

Precisely what I think. Just did never found the time to dive deeply into scenario scripting. Sometimes recon troops stay at an observation point for longer time, though. But that is not interesting for a scenario here.

[Erwin]

To make use of vehicles one really needs a large enuff map that is too large for leg recon.  Otherwise, one may as well dismount the recon vehicles and use the crews on foot.

[hank24]

According to the 4.0 manual, there are the following limits:

Maps can have a maximum total surface area of 18 kilometers squared (4248m x 4248m if shaped as a perfect square). No side can be longer than 8,000 meters. The ratio of the length and width of the map must be 10:1 or less.

So, the longest map can be 8 km x 2.25 km (18/8 = 2.25). Very useful for an interesting vehicle recon scenario displaying a long range recon behind enemy lines after infiltration.

[SimpleSimon]

It's a shame we don't have horses in the game. Quite a few armies were still using them-Cavalry Divisions especially-in reconnaissance. Germany had at least one Cavalry Division at the start of the war and it was still around during Operation Barbarossa I think. Not sure how its Aufklarung might've looked or if it even had one. 

[Thewood1]

21 hours ago, SimpleSimon said:

exit zones and touch objectives to better convey what recon is up to

This is how you do it.  Detecting a unit to convey the need to ID units, breaking through screens, counter-recon, etc.  That's how it should be done.  The recon game is an entire scenario by itself.  CM maps just aren't big enough to have a full battle with recon as part of it.  In CM, scouting for intel all you are really doing in the big battles.

[Erwin]

Recon scenarios work well in campaigns.  A mission could consist of reconning a map so you know where the defenses are.  Next mission would be an attack on the same map.  IIRC the CMSF2 "British Campaign" has such a recon mission.