Infantry Effective Range-request and insight

[Combatintman]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

What is a #11: "Wombat"?

And just in case you need to ask, a Wombat Shell is something that got carried around by soldiers, while being shouted at by an idiot of a Regimental Policeman, who had upset their superiors.

[DMS]

4 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

I can say .303 like all handloads you can get a much better performance than any intermediate round in production today. Doing my sums with the 5,56 NATO which is similar I imagine to the Russian 5.45 mm I just looked it up it is 55Grain going at 3000ft/sec. It gives you a performance similar as a 9 mmx19 at 25 meters at 300 meters. You can custom load any bolt rifle for any purpose. .303 with a scope you will be effective between 500 meters and 1000 meters depending on visibility and the weather. I gave you my insight as a handloader which I did as a hobby till about 30 years ago.  Higher velocity doesn't mean better ballistics. I would prefer the 7.62 x 39mm rather than the more modern 5.56 NATO which used to be affected by brush or wind more than a slower and heavier projectile. It depends what your purpose is, for accuracy the .38 Special with a 148 grain wadcutter velocity 800ft/sec is more accurate than a 9 mm Parabellum with a 115 grain going at 1200ft/sec at 50 meters. Why that is? I don't know but I selected the .38 special for competition. 

I'm just starting to reload x54 round! A bit expensive here, in RF, so I have small progress.

It depends, how great is velocity and how good is BC! According to Soviet fire tables, PKM (7,62x54, 825m/s) outperforms AK-74 (5,45x39, 900m/s) after 600m. But RPK-74 (960 m/s) is better up to 1000m. (Has flatter trajectory) But wind drift is better for PKM already after 500m. For .303 relation must be close to this, I think. Wind drift must be better, as bullet is heavier. 

British could achieve 800 m/s, like Soviets did for "Д" cartridge with heavy bullet for HMGs and sniper rifles, but preferred to have low impulse (or better accuracy?). Interesting cartridge. Empty bullet nose for accuracy, high-tech of 1910-s.

[DMS]

1 hour ago, ASL Veteran said:

You mean 'Grazing Fire'?

No. Length of zone in front of target, where trajectory height is not higher that target's height. (Actually, just cotangent of descent angle х target height)

[Muzzleflash1990]

You are talking about danger spaces, most specifically the one closest to the target.

[chuckdyke]

5 hours ago, DMS said:

Empty bullet nose for accuracy, high-tech of 1910-s.

Depends on bullet design a boattail projectile for accuracy some other design made to tumble. With an MG tumbling is desired after a certain range as you increase the beaten zone. The Bren for example shot the same .303 round it was too accurate for an LMG. Bolt rifles are much better for civilian use, as you can customize your rounds. Grazing fire is opposite of plunging fire with grazing fire you aim at waist height along the axis of an attack (enfilade position).   

[Ryujin]

13 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

The Bren for example shot the same .303 round it was too accurate for an LMG. 

I'm pretty sure no one has ever complained that their LMG was too accurate. If you want to spread shots around a beaten zone you can do that yourself, you wouldn't need to rely on dispersion from the gun.  

Think about it for a second, would you really want an inaccurate LMG or tumbling rounds? It's only going to limit your effective range.

[chuckdyke]

9 minutes ago, Ryujin said:

Think about it for a second, would you really want an inaccurate LMG or tumbling rounds?

Have you ever retrieved .50 slugs? They tumble. The Bren was too accurate compared to the MG42 for example. It is comparing apples and oranges. In CM you can't do it but in the HMG role you can use it as light artillery in the indirect fire mode. Tumbling rounds going through the human body make one hell of a mess. Oh, it is a way around hollow point rounds. 

Edited April 20, 2021 by chuckdyke

[DMS]

15 hours ago, Muzzleflash1990 said:

You are talking about danger spaces, most specifically the one closest to the target.

 

Yes! Thanks. Sorry for awful English, couldn't explain so long.

12 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Depends on bullet design a boattail projectile for accuracy some other design made to tumble. With an MG tumbling is desired after a certain range as you increase the beaten zone. The Bren for example shot the same .303 round it was too accurate for an LMG. Bolt rifles are much better for civilian use, as you can customize your rounds

As I understand, better stabilisation -> faster twist -> worse accuracy. Initially SVD had 320 mm twist, but than it was changed to standard 240 mm (to shoot long tracer bullets) and accuracy dropped.

[chuckdyke]

4 minutes ago, DMS said:

to shoot long tracer bullets

It depends on each firearm bedding of the barrel plays a role too. Only one way to find out and is testing for groups. We are discussing the game here and they got it about right. 300 meters for game play is an effective range for snipers five hundred meters to 1km. 

[Ryujin]

59 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Have you ever retrieved .50 slugs? They tumble. The Bren was too accurate compared to the MG42 for example. It is comparing apples and oranges. In CM you can't do it but in the HMG role you can use it as light artillery in the indirect fire mode. Tumbling rounds going through the human body make one hell of a mess. Oh, it is a way around hollow point rounds. 

I thought you were talking about them tumbling through the air, which you def don't want since unstabilized they're going to go all over the place. Tumbling on impact is different. 

Still not sure where too accurate is coming from other than some sort of WW2 myth. The recoil is going to give you some good spread and you could always induce more spread if you want. Having accuracy is going to help if you wanted to actually hit something. Especially if you're trying to use it at very long ranges off a tripod. 

[chuckdyke]

6 hours ago, Ryujin said:

Still not sure where too accurate is coming from other than some sort of WW2 myth.

That was the only criticism Australian Vietnam veterans had of the Bren compared with the M60. It was more an automatic rifle than an LMG. The function of a tripod enables you to fire from just behind a crest and aids in plunging fire. CM overcomes this by supplying allied troops with light mortars. We are arguing about generic issues, barrel replacement is not addressed either in case of the MG42. It was a shortcoming for the Germans on D-Day. Happy gaming.