Elefants and Tigers

[zaybz]

Hi - rookie player here.

I'm playing the Elephants and Tigers scenario on the demo, as the Allies attacking, but I'm struggling to find a good route of attack. 

Anyone got any tips for this scenario?

Thanks very much!

Edited March 14, 2021 by zaybz

[zaybz]

For example, where is good to set up a base of fire?

I was thinking of setting up in the town (San Pietro) and try to flank round the left, via the furthest bridge. Or is the ford a better approach?

[danfrodo]

Hi Zaybz, I haven't played this one but just loaded it up and looks like I should play it.  Your intel says San Pietro is unoccupied as of last night.  If so, you've got a great spot from which to direct fire from your 81mm off map mortar. 

The right side has really good views of the objective area so I'd at least move some recon over there.   You have a little time before your reinforcements arrive and you have a full hour to work with.  I'd say don't commit too much until you've had a look around w those scout cars and some infantry scouts.  You know how to split off 2 man scout teams from your infantry squads?

You can deploy your initial units anywhere along your edge of the map, so try not to get too biased by the initial set up.  You need information ASAP and then can make a better plan.  San Pietro looks great but the germans know that also and may have put some outposts there in those tough stone walled building.

 

[danfrodo]

also note that from San Pietro it's hard to see the bridge & ford due to the trees & orchard in the way

[zaybz]

thanks @danfrodo for your insightful answer!

I've more or less done what you said (with the odd rookie blunder thrown in)... So I know roughly where the enemy is set up. I'm just struggling to find an approach, as the terrain is seemingly so open from every angle.

The town is an excellent observation point but too far away to be a decent base of fire (I think!?). [just read your second post which covers this!]

I've more or less decided to flank to the far left, as there is some dead ground on the enemy's side of the river which might help my approach. The exact location of my base of fire is still up in the air at the moment!

[danfrodo]

cool, zaybz, have fun!   I am playing this one also right now but just a few minutes in.  San Pietro quiet.... so far

[danfrodo]

and remember you have smoke from you little 51mm mortars.  If you have some evil-doer blocking your advance you can blind him long enough for your units to get into some advantageous position.  or drop some of the 51mm HE on him.  It's the secret power of the british rifle platoon for knocking out german MG positions.

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, danfrodo said:

It's the secret power of the british rifle platoon for knocking out german MG positions.

Also, of the US 60 mm. They complement tactically their water-cooled HMG's as you can hide them just behind a crest and still plot a direct (semi-indirect fire mission). In RL the HMG's could be used in this manner, it was the function of the team leader to find the sweet spot for their positions. In the game we just have to settle for the light mortars.  

[danfrodo]

Well, now that I am into the heat of this little battle I only have one question:  why would Battlefront put this on the demo? -- it's actually a very nasty fight.  The AI (germans) have a ton of firepower relative to the Brits.  An experienced player can win this, but it is not a very good battle for a new person.  Germans have multiple infantry guns, lots of MGs, and an AA wagon, plus a nice reverse slope for dug in defense.  The brits have some crappy little armored cars and a company of infantry with some 81mm mortars. This would be a good demo if the Brits at least had more arty or some light tanks.

Having said that it's a really good battle.  Unfortunately I could see a new person getting really frustrated with it.

[danfrodo]

Zaybz, how'd you are in it.  I think your plan to go hard left is the right way to go but there are some nasty surprises along the way.

[zaybz]

11 hours ago, danfrodo said:

Zaybz, how'd you are in it.  I think your plan to go hard left is the right way to go but there are some nasty surprises along the way.

Thanks Danfrodo

SPOILER ALERT !!

13 hours ago, danfrodo said:

Unfortunately I could see a new person getting really frustrated with it.

This pretty much sums it up!

At first I made good progress, by taking out the enemy spotters around San Pietro. I then did a very careful, very British manoeuvre to take the farmhouse on the left, on the Allied side of the river, whilst also taking out the enemy in the hedges nearby and an MG nest which my scouts changed upon, with some direct 61mm mortar fire (from a few feet away, behind a wall - very satisfying!) and HE from the Humber.

My next move was to create a smoke screen to allow me to advance to the other side of the river, via both bridges. This worked well, and under fire I took the farmhouse. Suddenly the enemy Flak vehicle became visible, and luckily I had sent a section to the right (near the Elefant and the orchard to it's right), for Recon purposes, and they hit it with AT weaponry when the Flak went walkies (I think because it was under fire from my MG's).

However, things then went VERY wrong over on the left. All my careful planning had been for nothing, as no matter how I approached, I couldn't get an effective firing angle on the enemy bunkers with ANY of my ground-level units. I brought up my Stuart and Dingos and some Bren Carriers to saturate the enemy with fire and act as 'bunker busters', with infantry moving in to assault but I just got massacred. I just cant seem to find an approach that allows me to fire effectively on the enemy. I thought I was mopping up at this stage but suddenly there seemed to be tonnes of Germans everywhere. They had somehow withstood MG and mortar saturation with barely a casualty.

The most frustrating thing is that I can't for the life of me find an approach which allows me to fire on them. I thought the farmhouse would be a good base of fire but it seems to have been ineffective. But I'm attempting to fire from lots of other angles too, which seem clear to me , but no dice! I've  also have possibly paid the price for losing some of my 61mm mortar guys along the way - they could have been useful in the final assault.

Sorry for the essay!!!

Edited March 17, 2021 by zaybz
Typos and clarity

[danfrodo]

that kind of tactical thinking and tenacity says that CM is the right fit for you .  So this is your first CM game?  are you going to first get Italy -- lots of good content in that w all the modules.  All the games are fun, I have everything except Afghanistan.  I suppose the full Normandy package is my favorite, though I play them all.  Shock Force and Black Sea are crazy good fun -- the weapons are insane compared to WW2.  And with the new East Front module due to come out I'll be back in Russia -- well, actually back in Poland/Germany/Hungary - soon.

I haven't finished this battle yet but I also took the farmhouse on the left and got fire onto a lot of germans.  but they do seem to keep popping up in new places -- I really want to put some PIATs in the back of that elephant, I hope I can get there.  

[zaybz]

Thanks! 

Yeah this will be my first CM game. I'm excited to get one, just waiting on a sale before I do.

WWII is my period of interest so I'm definitely going for one of them (but thanks for the info on the others!), with the intention of playing as the British / commonwealth as much as possible. The thing that puts me off Normandy is the thought of fighting in all that bocage! But perhaps that's misplaced. 

I'm glad you think this mission isnt beginner level, as I was feeling a bit dispirited at how hard it was! I probably need to work up my skill level progressively through the game. I'm actually left with a genuine reinforced feeling of admiration for the Allies and how tough it must have been to attack all these well defended positions with mostly green troops, up against an enemy with a lot more experience. Although in this instance I can't help but feel they would have pounded this position with artillery before any assault.

Good luck with the mission! Luckily I saved before my foolhardy assault.

[StieliAlpha]

12 minutes ago, zaybz said:

Thanks! 

Yeah this will be my first CM game. I'm excited to get one, just waiting on a sale before I do

Hm, „sale“ is not a known concept at BFC. The only deal you get is when you buy a bundle. On the upside: As far as I recall, BFC never raised prices...

And „beginner level“ is not a known concept either, except for the shooting range in the tutorials perhaps. Some scenarios may be simpler than others, but in general all are the „real thing“.

You need a certain „frustration resilience“. But once you developed it, you are in for a long, rewarding gaming life.

Good luck!

[mjkerner]

zaybz, you won't have as much bocage in the British sectors, and there is really none in any of the Market Garden area scenarios. With all the content in BN, I'd go for that first as an avid WWII British enthusiast. Italy next...., 

[danfrodo]

1 hour ago, zaybz said:

Thanks! 

Yeah this will be my first CM game. I'm excited to get one, just waiting on a sale before I do.

WWII is my period of interest so I'm definitely going for one of them (but thanks for the info on the others!), with the intention of playing as the British / commonwealth as much as possible. The thing that puts me off Normandy is the thought of fighting in all that bocage! But perhaps that's misplaced. 

I'm glad you think this mission isnt beginner level, as I was feeling a bit dispirited at how hard it was! I probably need to work up my skill level progressively through the game. I'm actually left with a genuine reinforced feeling of admiration for the Allies and how tough it must have been to attack all these well defended positions with mostly green troops, up against an enemy with a lot more experience. Although in this instance I can't help but feel they would have pounded this position with artillery before any assault.

Good luck with the mission! Luckily I saved before my foolhardy assault.

that is too funny!  I did the exact same thing.  I thought I had them beat and launched infantry assault that went very badly -- so went back to save to try more cautious approach.  So even after ~5 years I didn't do any better than you did. 

I agree w mjkerner -- get the full Normandy bundle.  There's tons of great British/commonwealth content, mostly not in bocage.  There's a Bourgebous Ridge scenario that is an absolutely epic tank battle.  There's Canadian battles, also some user campaigns & scenarios.  This one purchase could keep you busy for a very very very long time.  I haven't played it all yet, not even close, and I bought it first.  Plus lots of mods to make the terrain & foliage and lighting look amazing.

 

[danfrodo]

The scenarios are all built to be challenging, so when I was new to the game I would often go into the scenario editor and add some extra units -- I was using quantity to overcome my low leadership quality.  This is a very easy process and makes the game more fun while you are learning because you can have more success.  Just add some tanks, or artillery, or infantry in the units section. Then go to deploy panel and place them.  Save it to a modified name and then play.   If, for example, they gave you 3 sherman, just add a few more.  Winning is hard when you are new so give yourself a little help if you get frustrated. 

I don't do this anymore but it definitely helped me back when I was even more clueless than I am now.

[mjkerner]

Oh, and try the missions in the Operation Clipper campaign, Zaybz. You'll be begging for bocage rather than dealing with mud!

[danfrodo]

operation clipper?  what campaign is that?  If it's fun, where does one find this?

[mjkerner]

Not sure where I found it, but I assume I got it off of the Scenario Depot (FGM, where Bootie's CMMOD is located). Very well done campaign, it appears, but for this one I stripped out all the scenarios and am just playing a few of them.

Edited March 17, 2021 by mjkerner

[zaybz]

3 hours ago, StieliAlpha said:

 

You need a certain „frustration resilience“. But once you developed it, you are in for a long, rewarding gaming life.

Good luck!

Hmm, a part of me is thinking "do I want to play a game which is going to frustrate me?"... But the answer is probably "yes!" 

Thanks 

[zaybz]

3 hours ago, mjkerner said:

zaybz, you won't have as much bocage in the British sectors, and there is really none in any of the Market Garden area scenarios. With all the content in BN, I'd go for that first as an avid WWII British enthusiast. Italy next...., 

Thanks, that's helpful info. 

[zaybz]

2 hours ago, danfrodo said:

that is too funny!  I did the exact same thing.  I thought I had them beat and launched infantry assault that went very badly -- so went back to save to try more cautious approach.  So even after ~5 years I didn't do any better than you did. 

I agree w mjkerner -- get the full Normandy bundle.  There's tons of great British/commonwealth content, mostly not in bocage.  There's a Bourgebous Ridge scenario that is an absolutely epic tank battle.  There's Canadian battles, also some user campaigns & scenarios.  This one purchase could keep you busy for a very very very long time.  I haven't played it all yet, not even close, and I bought it first.  Plus lots of mods to make the terrain & foliage and lighting look amazing.

 

All good info, thanks.

I think a patient approach might bear fruit for me with this scenario - wait for them to pop their heads out of their foxholes and proceed with much caution! (I think I was tempted in my play style by the myth that all good generals must act quickly and decisively at all times! Patience and caution are in order here...)

 

 

[zaybz]

2 hours ago, danfrodo said:

The scenarios are all built to be challenging, so when I was new to the game I would often go into the scenario editor and add some extra units -- I was using quantity to overcome my low leadership quality.  This is a very easy process and makes the game more fun while you are learning because you can have more success.  Just add some tanks, or artillery, or infantry in the units section. Then go to deploy panel and place them.  Save it to a modified name and then play.   If, for example, they gave you 3 sherman, just add a few more.  Winning is hard when you are new so give yourself a little help if you get frustrated. 

I don't do this anymore but it definitely helped me back when I was even more clueless than I am now.

Good idea - I might try that.

[Ts4EVER]

I played this a while back: