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M-47 Dragon, in the table of organization and equipment


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1 hour ago, IICptMillerII said:

It depends on the formation, but it is essentially a squad level asset. Its available all through the timeline of the game so it will feature rather prominently. 

Good to hear! Even tough Dragon is not the most dangerous missile out there it will be a real trouble maker in numbers. As I understand it is light, fast to setup and the missiles are not too heavy. So integrates well to an infantry squad without limiting the mobility.

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1 minute ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

Good to hear! Even tough Dragon is not the most dangerous missile out there it will be a real trouble maker in numbers. As I understand it is light, fast to setup and the missiles are not too heavy. So integrates well to an infantry squad without limiting the mobility.

While I was in all most all my teams in the Combat military police corps we had one per team. I loved this missile! 

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1 minute ago, SgtHatred said:

The Dragon is comically terrible and I look forward to seeing it in large numbers, hopefully with its signature loudness.

How is it terrible? I am under impression that it is essentially longer range heavy RPG-type weapon. It is a squad level AT-weapon. Soviets have RPG-7 for this role with real range of about 200m, with Dragon US squad as effective range of 1000m.

It is mobile, good enough with the penetration but I am not so sure about the accuracy, do we have any data on the hit changes? How about on moving target?

 

If its role would have been a company level AT-asset, yes I would agree it would have been terrible.

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23 minutes ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

How is it terrible? I am under impression that it is essentially longer range heavy RPG-type weapon. It is a squad level AT-weapon. Soviets have RPG-7 for this role with real range of about 200m, with Dragon US squad as effective range of 1000m.

It is mobile, good enough with the penetration but I am not so sure about the accuracy, do we have any data on the hit changes? How about on moving target?

 

If its role would have been a company level AT-asset, yes I would agree it would have been terrible.

My understanding, backed up by FAS, is that it wasn't terribly accurate or reliable, and slow as hell for a missile. Combine that with the fact that firing a Dragon is an invitation to be blasted to bits (watch the video) and I think I'd rather have fewer, more effective ATGMs like the Soviet company level ones.

Seriously, this slow missile is just screaming for attention as it meanders towards its target. I may have exaggerated slightly, but look at that silly thing fly.

Edited by SgtHatred
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13 minutes ago, SgtHatred said:

My understanding, backed up by FAS, is that it wasn't terribly accurate or reliable, and slow as hell for a missile. Combine that with the fact that firing a Dragon is an invitation to be blasted to bits (watch the video) and I think I'd rather have fewer, more effective ATGMs like the Soviet company level ones.

Seriously, this slow missile is just screaming for attention as it meanders towards its target. I may have exaggerated slightly, but look at that silly thing fly.

US does have TOW-missiles for the higher level assets. So the real questing is are the Dragons better or worse than the alternatives for squad level AT-weapons of this era?

Speed is same as the AT-5, so yes a bit on the slow side but nothing out of the ordinary for the era.

Does the way it flies or the sound it makes matter if it hits and kills the target? We need some actual data on the hit changes and reliability.

Video on how it works:
https://youtu.be/L-9_EhxfFvY?t=296

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From sbwiki.  Min range, max range, penetration, speed (m/s), and year.  In SB, its very cool to watch the the little bursts of the side thrusters.  In the CMCW timeframe, its a medium threat to an MBT.  It will still kill anything less than a tank fairly easily.  Its range and firing signature are the real weakness.  Its closest Soviet equivalent is the AT-7.  But the AT-7 has shorter min range and higher speed to target.

 

Dragon 75 1000 330 87 1973  
Dragon II 75 1000 450 87 1985  
Dragon III/Superdragon 75 1500 450 87 1990
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1 hour ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

This just beautiful stats! Thank you @akd

Surprisingly low percentage. US army training materials speak about 90% hit change for most soviet ATGMs. source: https://youtu.be/4wtcd8PppJw

I bet that went way down for 9K115 used off of the shoulder rather than on a tripod.

1 hour ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

Now I would be very interested about similar practical stats for all the ATGMs of the era. haha

Most tripod-mounted SACLOS systems are 80-90%, although that is probably under training conditions.

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7 hours ago, Able Archer said:

200 m/s is normal for a light weapon like this. If you want faster, then there's the TOW. and other heavy ATGMS
Firing signature looks low. The noise when the thrusters "pop" my be detectable, but wouldn't it be hard to locate the firing position by those sounds?

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dragon+m47

Well, the pop is very loud. Someone is likely to notice it more than once as it travels to its target, meanwhile the shooter isn't really afforded much cover due to how the Dragon was designed to be set up. Cover isn't really an option with it.

 

10 hours ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

US does have TOW-missiles for the higher level assets. So the real questing is are the Dragons better or worse than the alternatives for squad level AT-weapons of this era?

Depending on how much twisting you want to do, the AT-5 is a squad level weapon for mechanized formations, along with the 4 and 3. BMPs were supposed to be integrated with the infantry squad they carry right?

10 hours ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

Does the way it flies or the sound it makes matter if it hits and kills the target? We need some actual data on the hit changes and reliability.

Depends on if your target is alone or not. In the context of a Rumble in Germany, your target likely has friends.

 

This post on the US Militaria Forum has several first hand accounts of Dragon usage and they all sound negative. According to these guys, the Dragon is awkward to use, training was lax, and the guy with the Dragon was the guy that drew the short straw. Explains some of the accuracy data posted above.

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12 hours ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

 So the real questing is are the Dragons better or worse than the alternatives for squad level AT-weapons of this era?

 

This is the key and the way to think about it. There are TOWs in the game, both M113 based and tripod based. There are LAWs a plenty for squads. And you have Dragons. In many cases in the Mech Infantry they are in the APCs and you have to ACQUIRE them before jumping out of the PC (hint - turn 1 - go around to all your infantry and ACQUIRE everything you can carry). 

Better or worse - you have to consider the era. The alternative is the LAW. It's a lot better than a LAW!  Yeah, you make yourself a target. You pretty much do that by taking a shot of any kind with any weapon. TOWs are definitely targets as well. Pretty rare is the TOW vehicle that gets to expend all its missiles.

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If memory serves, the assessed survivability of Dragon teams in a major conflict was meant to be quite low - although you've got to wonder what your average GI/motostrelok's statistics were too.

Regardless, I'm looking forward to trying out the popcorn of death in CM!

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At least in the current Beta build [obsolete information], Dragons ATGMs are not among 'acquireables' for infantry. You can't scamper your infantry back to the truck and grab a Dragon like you could a Javelin. The current setup is kind'a complicated and I haven't got a firm handle on it yet. Your infantry have an option of being 'light' medium' or 'heavy'. 'Light' inf platoon apparently gets no Dragons at all. I can't tell you the difference between medium and heavy without some investigating.

One place where Dragons are 'acquireable', apparently, is a HQ scout platoon. But is it just missile reloads or the launcher sight assembly as well? [Edit, it turns out yes, the Dragon launch unit is in among acquireable too]. Remember, this title is new to EVERYBODY and its still a work in progress. There are no old hands to tell you what's what. We're learning as we go too.

Edited by MikeyD
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1 hour ago, MikeyD said:

At least in the current Beta build, Dragons ATGMs are not among 'acquireables' for infantry. You can't scamper your infantry back to the truck and grab a Dragon like you could a Javelin. The current setup is kind'a complicated and I haven't got a firm handle on it yet. Your infantry have an option of being 'light' medium' or 'heavy'. 'Light' inf platoon apparently gets no Dragons at all. I can't tell you the difference between medium and heavy without some investigating.

One place where Dragons are 'acquireable', apparently, is a HQ scout platoon. But is it just missile reloads or the launcher sight assembly as well? [Edit, it turns out yes, the Dragon launch unit is in among acquireable too]. Remember, this title is new to EVERYBODY and its still a work in progress. There are no old hands to tell you what's what. We're learning as we go too.

Yup. That's one hint for everyone. If you've got scouts, before turn one, ACQUIRE the Dragons in the M113. One launcher, usually 2 or 3 missiles. And all the LAWs they can carry. If you dismount they'll leave all that in the track. Goes for infantry as well ....  get those LAWs (and might as well grab all the 40mm grenades while you're at it). 

First few playlists I wasted time running back to vehicles to get stuff. Same goes for Redeye teams. You'll dismount them to find cover but there are extra missiles in the Jeep. Acquire those right away. 

Dave

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  • 4 weeks later...

Dragon gunners like javelin gunners are typically platoon level assets. You have m72 laws and at4s at the squad level. I was an infantryman between 1978-1987. (And my son is an infantryman now and was a javelin gunner for a while) 

Also none of us were particularly enamored with the dragon but it was all we had as a platoon asset that could engage things out to a kilometer (iirc) We had several firing malfunctions. The worst,  one day while at the range an m47 malfunctioned when it was half way down the range shot straight up then came back at us. Everyone dove for cover as it flew by the gunner and exploded on a berm behind him. No one was hurt.  But sometimes they worked too.

Los

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/10/2021 at 11:48 PM, The_MonkeyKing said:

Where are and how we going to be seeing this system in practice? Squad level system like the Javelin in US Army or like the Javelin with the USMC? Are all infantry going to be getting it or just mech or light infantry?

Since the USMC are not part of CMCW, Dragon AT missiles will probably at the very least be organic at a platoon level for the US Army. AT missiles such as Dragons and Javelins are organic at the Battalion level and dispersed to Company level at the discretion of the Battalion Commander in the USMC. Marine infantry don’t need organic AT missiles other than AT4s because they have hand grenades and K-bars!😝

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On 4/14/2021 at 12:45 PM, Vet 0369 said:

Since the USMC are not part of CMCW, Dragon AT missiles will probably at the very least be organic at a platoon level for the US Army. AT missiles such as Dragons and Javelins are organic at the Battalion level and dispersed to Company level at the discretion of the Battalion Commander in the USMC. Marine infantry don’t need organic AT missiles other than AT4s because they have hand grenades and K-bars!😝

For CMCW they are generally a squad level option, either in the editor (Infantry / M113 Mech Infantry) or by acquiring from the squad / team’s own vehicle (Bradley Mech Infantry / Cavalry).

EDIT: correction above for clarification between types of Mech Inf.

Edited by akd
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4 hours ago, Vet 0369 said:

Since the USMC are not part of CMCW, Dragon AT missiles will probably at the very least be organic at a platoon level for the US Army. AT missiles such as Dragons and Javelins are organic at the Battalion level and dispersed to Company level at the discretion of the Battalion Commander in the USMC. Marine infantry don’t need organic AT missiles other than AT4s because they have hand grenades and K-bars!😝

They were issued at company level but the distribution always ended up at one per squad. That was in 1982.

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Its difficult to get out of the mindset that a squad should be a 'do everything' force. Taking a quick peek in the game, US mech inf seems to be based around the 'do everything' concept, integral mgs and AT assets. Its a bit unnerving, in comparison. seeing a regular infantry squad without mg or anti-tank support - just a bunch of guys with M16s. That force structure is more Company-centered. The Company is the 'do everything' force, while the smaller units in it have their separate assigned tasks. This a gross oversimplification, of course. The TO&E structure is very deep and dependent on many variables. 

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On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2021 at 4:43 PM, Ultradave said:

Yup. That's one hint for everyone. If you've got scouts, before turn one, ACQUIRE the Dragons in the M113. One launcher, usually 2 or 3 missiles. And all the LAWs they can carry. If you dismount they'll leave all that in the track. Goes for infantry as well ....  get those LAWs (and might as well grab all the 40mm grenades while you're at it). 

But won't the heavy load exhaust infantry team at a faster rate?  If my memory is correct , in CMBS, a squad will not be able to use "Fast" order after acquire one Javelin launcher and 3 missiles. They will become tired with half minute "quick" movement.       ( one of the solution is to have the squad take launcher and 1 missile, let another team or even the HQ team in the same platoon be the ammo bearer , carry another 2 missiles)

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