Reforger Motor Pools

[Sequoia]

Just curious for those in the know. My understanding is the US had motor pools of vehicles in West Germany aka POMCUS sites just awaiting whole units of troops to be flown over should the balloon go up. Could someone elaborate on that or point me to a link beyond what I find a Wikipedia please? I'm curious about if the stored vehicles were old or new and exactly how they were stored. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a wide variety. Any sources on inventory by year? I know that's asking a lot.

 

Thanks

[StieliAlpha]

8 hours ago, Sequoia said:

Just curious for those in the know. My understanding is the US had motor pools of vehicles in West Germany aka POMCUS sites just awaiting whole units of troops to be flown over should the balloon go up. Could someone elaborate on that or point me to a link beyond what I find a Wikipedia please? I'm curious about if the stored vehicles were old or new and exactly how they were stored. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a wide variety. Any sources on inventory by year? I know that's asking a lot.

 

Thanks

Yep, that‘s what Reforger was about. Bring the troops to their equipment.

Look it up in Wikipedia, or read (certainly more fun) Tom Clancy‘s Red Storm Rising or (much more serious) Gen. Hacket‘s Third World War.

Here is a website about POMCUS sites in Northern Germany: https://www.relikte.com/nl_pomcus/index.htm

Not very specific, but perhaps a good starting point for you.

Edited March 7, 2021 by StieliAlpha

[Double Deuce]

5 hours ago, StieliAlpha said:

Here is a website about POMCUS sites in Northern Germany: https://www.relikte.com/nl_pomcus/index.htm

That's actually pretty informative, starting about 1/3 of the way down. More information might be found here . . 

USAREUR Units & Kasernes, 1945 - 1989 (usarmygermany.com)

[Sequoia]

Thanks for the links guys. Part of the reason I was wondering was if the sites had older equipment we'd have even more reason for the M48s. Maybe even Sheridans were still in storage there for the 3rd ACR. Not that I'm trying to argue to include Sheridans this late in the development.

[ng cavscout]

1 hour ago, Sequoia said:

Thanks for the links guys. Part of the reason I was wondering was if the sites had older equipment we'd have even more reason for the M48s. Maybe even Sheridans were still in storage there for the 3rd ACR. Not that I'm trying to argue to include Sheridans this late in the development.

My good friend was in the 82nd in the early 90s, as a Cavalry Scout, and they were still using Sheridans.

[StieliAlpha]

1 hour ago, Sequoia said:

Thanks for the links guys. Part of the reason I was wondering was if the sites had older equipment we'd have even more reason for the M48s. Maybe even Sheridans were still in storage there for the 3rd ACR. Not that I'm trying to argue to include Sheridans this late in the development.

Well, I have not seen any solid info, but looking at the effort put into the POMCUS sites and their importance for the rapid response concept, I believe they held top notch equipment. It would not make much sense, to shuffle 50‘000+ guys to Europe in a hurry and then outfit them with outdated equipment. 

[Sequoia]

There's no flaw in your logic, but even the US military budget was not without limits and what one would like to have differed with what one had. "You go to war with the Army you have, right?" 

[StieliAlpha]

21 minutes ago, Sequoia said:

There's no flaw in your logic, but even the US military budget was not without limits and what one would like to have differed with what one had. "You go to war with the Army you have, right?" 

Hm, I think, I said something like that in another post the other day.

But you are ruining the confidence, which I had as a conscript back then. I was so sure, that somebody would be better prepared than our outfit...

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

11 hours ago, StieliAlpha said:

Here is a website about POMCUS sites in Northern Germany: https://www.relikte.com/nl_pomcus/index.htm

For a translation from a German website, I can recommend https://www.deepl.com/translator
That translation service is way better than google translate, especially when it comes to translations from English to German and vice versa.

[MikeyD]

About reserve stocks. The game fields a baseline M60A1 with no upgrades. By all rights it shouldn't be in the game but its meant to represent one of the thousands of old M60s in storage that would only get dusted off if things got dire. M48A5 is another matter. Its a modernized, upgraded vehicle from circa 1976 being used by US National Guard units at the time. I doubt they'd pull a 90mm gun M48A3 out of storage because 90mm ammo is no longer in the US supply chain.

It would be difficult to stress how much of an engineering disaster Sheridan was. It remained with Airborne long enough to see Panama and Desert Storm. But its utility was more psychological than anything, people seeing a 'tank' on their street is intimidating, nevermind it would probably break if it had to fire its cannon.

Edited March 9, 2021 by MikeyD

[Sequoia]

Hey, we need something to take on the ASU 85s ! 

I want to say I appreciate that Battlefront includes second line material in their hypothetical subject families. To me the biggest stretch was the Canadian Leopard I in Shock Force. Had the Syrian War in Shock Force been a reality, I still can't see any way Canada would ship its Leopard I's to participate in that campaign.

P.S. Do I recall correctly Shock Force Canadians also had M109s that would have had to been taken out of reserve storage to be used?

Edited March 9, 2021 by Sequoia
P.S.

[Splinty]

On 3/6/2021 at 9:58 PM, Sequoia said:

Just curious for those in the know. My understanding is the US had motor pools of vehicles in West Germany aka POMCUS sites just awaiting whole units of troops to be flown over should the balloon go up. Could someone elaborate on that or point me to a link beyond what I find a Wikipedia please? I'm curious about if the stored vehicles were old or new and exactly how they were stored. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a wide variety. Any sources on inventory by year? I know that's asking a lot.

 

Thanks

I had one experience picking up a replacement vehicle from the POMCUS site at Pirmasans in West Germany. My unit was authorized a new M880 (Dodge 1/2 ton Pickup.) Because it was a new addition to our TO&E we got to go get a brand new one from the POMCUS stocks. This vehicle still had the factory stickers and brand new tools, manuals, and all kinds of other additional gear most of us had never even seen on our older vehicles. So as far as my experience goes, the stuff at the POMCUS sites was brand new, fully equipped and ready to go.

[Sequoia]

I inquired on Board Game Geek Wargamers area and got this reply so far:

 

"In about 1981 or maybe 1982, I was the S-4 of 1-34 Armor and we deployed as a part of REFORGER and drew a POMCUS set. The set of equipment was well maintained and we had no real problems during the draw, operations, or turn in. The equipment or at least some, of the equipment was not new. I remember looking at tank serial numbers - I don't remember if I had to sign verify the serial numbers of the equipment I was signing for or not - but I essentially signed for a tank battalion, one each complete. At least one of the serial numbers seemed to me to be one of the M60A1 Rise Passive tanks I had been signed for as a tank and cavalry platoon leader in 1/11 ACR. As I was leaving the 11th ACR just as we were getting the first generation of M60A3s (laser range finder, but no thermal sights), it makes sense that the tanks, only about 18 months old, would be put into POMCUS. As I recall, POMCUS sites were periodically updated, but were not necessarily the most recent tanks fielded."

 

[ng cavscout]

On 3/9/2021 at 12:41 PM, MikeyD said:

About reserve stocks. The game fields a baseline M60A1 with no upgrades. By all rights it shouldn't be in the game but its meant to represent one of the thousands of old M60s in storage that would only get dusted off if things got dire. M48A5 is another matter. Its a modernized, upgraded vehicle from circa 1976 being used by US National Guard units at the time. I doubt they'd pull a 90mm gun M48A3 out of storage because 90mm ammo is no longer in the US supply chain.

It would be difficult to stress how much of an engineering disaster Sheridan was. It remained with Airborne long enough to see Panama and Desert Storm. But its utility was more psychological than anything, people seeing a 'tank' on their street is intimidating, nevermind it would probably break if it had to fire its cannon.

My buddy tells stories of being in the 82nd motor pool in the early 90s, hearing a loud metallic crack, and seeing a Sheridan track just break. Not from driving, just a Sheridan, no occupants, engine off, sitting on the line, and the track goes.

Edited March 11, 2021 by ng cavscout

[MikeyD]

There's a Youtube video (probably somewhere on this site) of a guy looking over a museum M60A2. I haven't seen the video for while but I believe he commented that the museum tank only had 16 miles (km?) on the odometer. So apparently the vehicle went from factory floor to POMCUS storage to museum floor and no place else.

[ng cavscout]

These are my friends recollections of the Sheridan

 

"

Thoughts on the Sheridan.

First, you need a good crew. The armor will stop a .50, but anything bigger is going to go through the hull. It's a vehicle that must rely on speed & maneuverability. This is especially compounded by the caseless ammo for the main gun. The powder was kept in place by a wax paper shell, so any big spark & it all cooked off. We lost 3 soldiers to a misfire doing qualifications back in 93 because of that.

The shillelagh wasn't too popular either, as we had to remain stationary, with the engine revved while it fired. The tracking system was an IR laser, & the strength of the beam was dependent upon the engine revs. I forget the exact RPM, as it's been near 30 years now.

Another problem with the vehicle was the outdated electrics. We'd use the turret motors to get on target, but then always fine tune the shot with the manual T&E. 

The recoil would kill or seriously injured someone that didn't know what they were doing. Firing the main gun would lift the front half of the 551 off the ground. The plus on that one is that you didn't really have to worry about getting back into hull down after firing. The recoil did that job for you.

They were fast as you like, though. My driver had been a NASCAR mechanic before enlisting. He fiddled with the engine, & we had an MP with a radar gun clock us at 53mph.

The vehicle is 20ft long, 9ft wide. We consistently could outmaneuver any M1s we encountered during the FTXs against them.

The thing was light. 12 tons empty, 20 combat loaded.

We forded countless small rivers with a good running start. We never needed the flotation kit. I only used it once in training. In my time on them, we never got one stuck. Our losses were 1 burning in due to parachute malfunction, & the misfire I mentioned.

We grew to love them because they were the bastard child of armor, but we could put the Abrams to shame with them.

We held the consensus that, given a dense type terrain, such as forest, swamp, or urban, we could outmaneuver any armor we encountered. We all knew we'd be ****ed if we had to do a kursk style engagement, though.

There's a quick overview. I hope it helps. If you have any other questions about my favorite tank, let me know.

One other item: if I remember correctly, the thermal sights didn't come in until around the time of Panama. Before then the doctrine was: 1 tank uses its spotlight to illuminate targets for night fire while the others shoot. The vehicles would cycle through their turns, but the spotlight still made you a big target at night."

[Sequoia]

IIRC they were the first US tanks to take station in Saudi Arabia in the Kuwait War but I don't know if they actually saw action.

[IMHO]

@Sequoiayou'd better put the time period you want the answer for

Edited March 12, 2021 by IMHO

[Sequoia]

I thought the Kuwait War was clear enough as opposed to the Iraq War, but perhaps my dislike of naming them First and Second Gulf Wars got the better of me.

[Los]

These were our babies