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U.S. Thread - CM Cold War - BETA AAR - Battle of Dolbach Heights 1980


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“Here, across death’s other river, the Tartar horsemen shake their spears.” T.S. Eliot   This BETA game is being played against Warren (The_Capt), and we are very familiar with each ot

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The Twenty-Third & Twenty-Fourth Minutes – Saga of Tank Section 1 “If the tanks succeed, then victory follows.” Heinz Guderian   Tank Section 1... quite an exciting turn to wat

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3 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

He has the Fagot ATGM which is like the Milan or the TOW it seems that the trees provide you with protection against ATGM's. Is that a feature in the game?

Are you asking if trees can block ATGMs?  If so yes as well as main gun rounds.. likely more than they should. 😛 Don't count on it though as it isn't always going to be true.  You'll notice it as well in air attacks against units in woods.

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I asked the designer, thanks for your advice. Shadows are supposed to conceal marksmen, but I see no evidence in the game. I know trees, power poles etc. can hinder Wired Guided projectiles. Machine gun fire could or should suppress ATGM 2nd generation they fly at half the speed or less of a NATO 7.62 projectile.

Edited by chuckdyke
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14 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

I asked the designer, thanks for your advice. Shadows are supposed to conceal marksmen, but I see no evidence in the game. I know trees, power poles etc. can hinder Wired Guided projectiles. Machine gun fire could or should suppress  they fly at half the speed or less as a NATO 7.62 projectile.

Trees can block ATGM's and have been able to do so since CMSF1 days.

Power poles are flavour objects which do not block ATGM in CM.

Machine gun fire can suppress ATG & ATGM teams... if said teams are suppressed quickly enough that will effect ATGM accuracy. Though it is extremely rare for such suppression to occur in the few seconds following a missile launch & before said missiles impact (at least in CMSF & CMBS).

Edited by 37mm
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1 hour ago, 37mm said:

Trees can block ATGM's and have been able to do so since CMSF1 days.

Power poles are flavour objects which do not block ATGM in CM.

Machine gun fire can suppress ATG & ATGM teams... if said teams are suppressed quickly enough that will effect ATGM accuracy. Though it is extremely rare for such suppression to occur in the few seconds following a missile launch & before said missiles impact (at least in CMSF & CMBS).

Although some old fence will stop an ATGM if it happens to get in the way. :)

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9 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

Although some old fence will stop an ATGM if it happens to get in the way. :)

The wires are its Achilles Heel. The Sinai was perfect for even the first generation in 1972 in Europe there will be some problems for the system. In SF2 the Scimitar is difficult to hit by Syrian ATGM's speed seems to be the best defense. Glad I try it out from behind my PC.

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4 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Shadows are supposed to conceal marksmen, but I see no evidence in the game.

I asked about this on the forum some time ago, but related to units in general (including armour).  The perceived wisdom was that keeping your units in the shadows makes no difference to them being spotted or not as the game doesn't 'see' shadows - it would be difficult for the game to track this. 

Of course if your units are hugging trees (not sure how many tree-huggers we have in the game) with or without shadows they may benefit from the sort of protection you discuss above.

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6 minutes ago, Vacilllator said:

I asked about this on the forum some time ago, but related to units in general (including armour).  The perceived wisdom was that keeping your units in the shadows makes no difference to them being spotted or not as the game doesn't 'see' shadows - it would be difficult for the game to track this. 

Of course if your units are hugging trees (not sure how many tree-huggers we have in the game) with or without shadows they may benefit from the sort of protection you discuss above.

It was part of the 7.62 mm vs 5.56 mm. To engage through the shrub is one of the advantages of the 7.62 mm weapons. They could increase mathematically the effectiveness of concealment going by the time of day. It worked in the bocage scenarios in Battle for Normandy. 

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3 minutes ago, Vacilllator said:

Not that I'm aware of, but I may be wrong?

EDIT - Or do you mean in real life?

Well in the game I thought it was very realistic, you could fire through if you were adjacent to the tiles. I think that's how it worked. One tile away and you're concealed but the enemy is not. It is not the trees but the type of tile you use. I became aware of it in Seven Winds. Have your engineers blasting the trees didn't make any difference at some spots. The tiles still blocked the Churchills and as such different tiles also determine visibility. You would make snipers a lot more effective. 

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14 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Well in the game I thought it was very realistic, you could fire through if you were adjacent to the tiles. I think that's how it worked. One tile away and you're concealed but the enemy is not. It is not the trees but the type of tile you use. I became aware of it in Seven Winds. Have your engineers blasting the trees didn't make any difference at some spots. The tiles still blocked the Churchills and as such different tiles also determine visibility. You would make snipers a lot more effective. 

So you're not talking about shadows then, but whether you can fire through bushes, trees, bocage?

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1 minute ago, Vacilllator said:

So you're not talking about shadows then, but whether you can fire through bushes, trees, bocage?

We agreed that shadows don't play a role. The bocage was the densest of the games I played, and they could apply the tiles in other scenarios. I apologize as I don't know enough of editing. I should have acknowledged your statement about the shadows.  

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2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

We agreed that shadows don't play a role. The bocage was the densest of the games I played, and they could apply the tiles in other scenarios. I apologize as I don't know enough of editing. I should have acknowledged your statement about the shadows.  

No worries, I think you just moved on quicker than me 😉.

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Eighth Minute - One Meter too Many

“You win in battles with the timing in the Void born of the timing of cunning by knowing the enemies’ timing, and thus using a timing which the enemy does not expect.”

A Book of Five Rings, The Ground Book - Miyamoto Musashi

(Yes I have Musashi’s book sitting next to me on my desk --- the man was an Effing genius)

 

Clarity, according to the Oxford Dictionary is “The quality of being certain or definite.”  Warren’s movements gave me that this turn. 

First the good news!   I know where some of his armor is, and I know what the type is.  There are two T-64As and I have spotted four BMP-1s (yes the Sagger armed version).  So I believe this is a separate formation from what was already on the map.  This must be part of the FSE which I have been expecting… should be formed on one Motorized Rifle Company (BMP-1 evidently) with one four-tank platoon in support.  Of course the organization still needs to be confirmed.

CMCW Feature:  The unit organizations for this game include many preformed task groups, including Soviet Forward Security Element, US Company Teams (different flavors), etc.

T08_A.png

Some tank porn for you perverts (you know who you are), I present Miss February, the T-64A:

T08_B.png

Before we continue let’s answer some PIRs:

Priority Intelligence Requirements (PIRs):

1.      Where is/are the enemy SBF position(s)

Warren has spread several BMP-1PKs along the treeline, being careful to stay out of my tank’s line of fire… though maybe that’s coincidence as they just destroyed the two BMPs that were in their zone of fire.  I believe this line is his SBF position.

2.      What is the size of the initial Soviet force?

I am calling the initial formation the Recon Company, but I need to figure out why it has two BMP-1PKs… hmmm.

3a.       Where are enemy’s tanks?  This is a persistent PIR and should be kept updated throughout the action.

Two T-64As have been identified in EAA1.  There should be two more in the FSE but those have yet to be located

3b.      What model tanks are in the Reconnaissance Company?

No tanks have been identified in the Recon Company only BMP-1Ps   

4a.       What is the organization of the initial follow-on force?

4b.      What model tanks are in the initial follow-on force?

5a.       What is the organization of any additional follow-on forces?

5b.      What model tanks are in any additional follow-on forces?

PIRs 4a, 4b, 5a, and 5b cannot be answered yet.

 

Okay I admit it… moving my M-150s forward was ill-advised.. got a little impatient there.  Let this be a lesson to you.

1.      M-150(1/5) moves forward, and luckily is still Hull Down to the BMP-1P that fires on it…

The shooter (spotted after he launched):

T08_C.png

The result (from two angles):

T08_C-G.gif

…meanwhile:

2.      M-150(1/4) moves too far forward.. sees the vehicles on EAA1 and then reverses as quickly as possible.. I really misjudged my Hull Down with this one.  Totally on me.

Two shooters (from EAA1):

T08_D-G.gif

T08_D-Gv2.gif

Well he did get a TOW off right before he gets smoked... of course the TOW went wild after that.  ;) 

What did I tell you? Beware of the BMP in this game… they are deadly.

Okay.. it’s late and I need to process this one and decide how best to respond.  Stand by for that.

T08_F_BB.png

Edited by Bil Hardenberger
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16 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

It is not the trees but the type of tile you use.

In CMBS for ATGMs and cannon rounds these are individual trees that block them. For the spotting these are tree-tops / tree crowns. You can use narrow "alleys" in a forest both to see and to shoot providing your LOS does not go through "underbrush". It's actually quite powerful as you can consciously expose yourself say to an ATGM team and bait it into launching still staying safe (engine TacAI does not "understand" this mechanic).

Edited by IMHO
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4 minutes ago, IMHO said:

In CMBS for ATGMs and cannon rounds these are individual trees that block them. For the spotting these are tree-tops / tree crowns. You can use narrow "alleys" in a forest both to see and to shoot providing your LOS does not go through "underbrush".

I would like to meet the operator who could guide his 1st or 2nd generation ATGM through an orchard for example, next step up would be an evergreen forest. I buy that a high-velocity kinetic system can manage. Happy gaming is the only way we can find out. In SF 2 trees have an effect possibly but so does fast travel. 

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21 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

I would like to meet the operator who could guide his 1st or 2nd generation ATGM through an orchard

You'll have too many :) Guiding an ATGM OVER the bushes / trees is a SOP for a qualified Fagot/Konkurs/Metis operator. They are literally taught to do so at the final stages of operator training. Though CM engine does not provide for this and always goes for a bee line. But they do it even in the wide open to avoid detection by tracing a straight line from the missile to the launcher through the target's gunner / commander sight.

Edited by IMHO
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14 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

My understanding is the operator need to keep its target inside the cross hairs to strike the target. Fire and forget was not developed yet. I buy the possibility they could have a sensor which could guide the missile over obstacles. 

No, the missile just gravitates to your mark so knowing the distance to the target and the missile speed you can firstly aim higher then lower the mark to the target. The missile will follow. The technique was actually developed early on to avoid entangling (and tearing off) the control wires in bushes that grow near the straight line to the target. So with BMP-2 you can go "hull-down" behind the bushes and yet launch the missile. And your skill will be your sensor :) 

Edited by IMHO
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1 minute ago, chuckdyke said:

My understanding is the operator need to keep its target inside the cross hairs to strike the target. Fire and forget was not developed yet. I buy the possibility they could have a sensor which could guide the missile over obstacles. 

You can aim above the target for most of the flight and then bring it down before impact. It goes wherever the crosshairs are pointed.

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