U.S. Thread - CM Cold War - BETA AAR - Battle of Dolbach Heights 1980

[chuckdyke]

3 minutes ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

Not a fair comparison IMO.  The Syrians and Egyptians in the Arab Israeli Wars were not the Soviets.  They were minor league at best... and in this game the first team, the Soviets, can be deadly and more than  match for a US force of equivalent size.

Probably in this game the Soviet gunnery will be on par. The Israelis made tank gunnery their priority obviously it paid off. The Sherman with the French 105 mm still gave a good account of itself from defensive positions. The T62 Russian version seems to have had features they didn't export to the Arabs. I look forward to it when it comes out. Good luck with your project.  

[Aragorn2002]

NEVER underestimate the Russians...

[IICptMillerII]

7 hours ago, stikkypixie said:

Do tanks of tanks of this era have laser range finders? Just curious about their first hit probability.

Many use a coincidence rangefinder, which is not as fast or accurate as a laser range finder. In CMCW, first shot hits are not guarantees. 

4 hours ago, Amedeo said:

Considering that in 1980 USAREUR was just receiving M735 APFSDS rounds with most unit still using older M728 APDS rounds until 1981, I would be very concerned, regardless of the actual kind of enemy tanks I'd happen to run into.

BTW, I wonder how CMCW handles this, since, IIRC, ammo loads are type (not year) dependent.

I guess: 

M48A5, M60A1 w/M728

M60A1 RISE, RISE+, RISE PASSIVE w/M735

M60A3, M60A3 TTS, M1 w/M774

I think this is roughly the correct breakdown, but I am not 100%. It should be a fairly decent approximation though. 

19 minutes ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

Comparing the fighting potential of Arabs in the Israeli wars with Red army is like comparing South Vietnamese army with US Army.

That is a very apt analogy. 

[chuckdyke]

2 minutes ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

Comparing the fighting potential of Arabs in the Israeli wars with Red army is like comparing South Vietnamese army with US Army.

The South Vietnamese army. Often members of the same family served with the Vietcong and the South Vietnamese army. If you go to the former US embassy in Ho Chi Minh city you can see the marking of the bombs dropped off by a South Vietnamese pilot using an F5 American plane. I visited the place five years ago. It was like a game of Chinese checkers, when you capture an enemy, you can turn them against your opponent. The code of war in Asia is a little different than in Europe. 

[The_MonkeyKing]

16 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

The South Vietnamese army. Often members of the same family served with the Vietcong and the South Vietnamese army. If you go to the former US embassy in Ho Chi Minh city you can see the marking of the bombs dropped off by a South Vietnamese pilot using an F5 American plane. I visited the place five years ago. It was like a game of Chinese checkers, when you capture an enemy, you can turn them against your opponent. The code of war in Asia is a little different than in Europe. 

Exactly, my point was that it makes as little sense to compare US army to South Vietnamese army as it does comparing Arab armies and Red Army. Even though they are in both cases mostly armed by and trained by their "sponsor".

[danfrodo]

Bil's videos & screenshots have me so excited I think I'm gonna pee my pants.  This is great stuff.  If I am that happy, I wonder how much more happy the actual 1980s army vets must be.  (I was close to joining US military since didn't have enough money to continue college, but lucked into a job at GM (generous motors) just a couple weeks before I planned on joining up -- GM paid a LOT more than the ~minimum wage gas station I have been working for years)

The add-ons for CMCW are gonna make the 2020s worth living -- Germans, Brits, Dutch, French maybe.  Perhaps some snow campaigns up north.  Maybe some mid-east fights.  Yeah, keep it coming.

 

[MikeyD]

According to an old graph in my posession, T62 has a 66-ish percent chance of a first round hit against a stationary M60A1 at 1,000m, a 50-ish percent chance of a first round hit at 1500m, and a 30-ish percent chance at 2000m. This from a tank with only rudimentary rangefinding abilities. Those are pretty good numbers (Cut those numbers to less than half if we're talking about M60A1 in hull down position).

On M60A1's side APDS was a notoriously flawed round known to bounce off T62 so they'd probably be firing HEAT rounds. HEAT had a 70-ish percent chance of hitting a T-62 size target at 1000m. That dropped to 50% at 1500m and 28% at 2000m. So the stats comparing (pre-DU sabot round) M60A1 to T62 are surprisingly even. Fighting against Soviets circa 1979 isn't a cake walk.

[The_MonkeyKing]

57 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

According to an old graph in my posession, T62 has a 66-ish percent chance of a first round hit against a stationary M60A1 at 1,000m, a 50-ish percent chance of a first round hit at 1500m, and a 30-ish percent chance at 2000m. This from a tank with only rudimentary rangefinding abilities. Those are pretty good numbers (Cut those numbers to less than half if we're talking about M60A1 in hull down position).

On M60A1's side APDS was a notoriously flawed round known to bounce off T62 so they'd probably be firing HEAT rounds. HEAT had a 70-ish percent chance of hitting a T-62 size target at 1000m. That dropped to 50% at 1500m and 28% at 2000m. So the stats comparing (pre-DU sabot round) M60A1 to T62 are surprisingly even. Fighting against Soviets circa 1979 isn't a cake walk.

I wonder how will the tacAI prioritize between using HEAT vs APDS. 

[Rice]

Just now, The_MonkeyKing said:

I wonder how will the tacAI prioritize between using HEAT vs APDS. 

Prob depends on the target.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

This is why I'm looking forward to the challenge of using M-48A5's more than anything else.

[The_MonkeyKing]

11 minutes ago, Rice said:

Prob depends on the target.

Yes of course but to what detail?

Even old APDS is enough and optimal for T-55 but what will the tacAI choose for the newer soviets tanks if for some reason HEAT would then be optimal. 

[akd]

3 hours ago, MikeyD said:

According to an old graph in my posession, T62 has a 66-ish percent chance of a first round hit against a stationary M60A1 at 1,000m, a 50-ish percent chance of a first round hit at 1500m, and a 30-ish percent chance at 2000m. This from a tank with only rudimentary rangefinding abilities. Those are pretty good numbers (Cut those numbers to less than half if we're talking about M60A1 in hull down position).

On M60A1's side APDS was a notoriously flawed round known to bounce off T62 so they'd probably be firing HEAT rounds. HEAT had a 70-ish percent chance of hitting a T-62 size target at 1000m. That dropped to 50% at 1500m and 28% at 2000m. So the stats comparing (pre-DU sabot round) M60A1 to T62 are surprisingly even. Fighting against Soviets circa 1979 isn't a cake walk.

From FM 71-1 (1977)

Edited February 21, 2021 by akd

[MikeyD]

I recall seeing a journal article shortly after American 105mm APFSDS was fielded.  It said something to the effect of "Now we finally can tell you... our APDS sucked." One vexing problem was the tendency for the shell to simply fly-off in a random direction, linked to the round not separating cleanly from the sabot. M735 APFSDS had similar problems. The sabot petals reportedly had a tendency to fall apart in the gun barrel. So, like APDS, it was really accurate and effective - except for those time when its not. 

[Bil Hardenberger]

Good stuff guys... in turn 5 as shown in my last post, the M-60A!(RISE+) fired two APFSDS rounds at the BMP... here is the ammo loadout for the M-60A!(RISE+)..

..for some reason I was thinking it fired HESH.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Bil Hardenberger

[Double Deuce]

Glad to see the good 'ol Willie Pete represented. 

 

[Sequoia]

Just thought I'd mention it looks like the TO&E includes pretty much ALL US Army Units (except Airborne and Airmobile) not just those in USAREUR am I right? For instance there are no straight infantry units (such as the 7th, 9th,and 24th Divisions had among others) in Seventh Army.

[Ultradave]

2 hours ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

This is why I'm looking forward to the challenge of using M-48A5's more than anything else.

I've been testing the US 79 campaign. It IS a challenge!

A bit like having early Shermans and you are facing nothing but Pz Vs

[akd]

One more, also from FM 71-1 (1977).  There is no explanation for why the two charts don't agree, emphasizing perhaps that these are very rough estimates.

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by akd

[BletchleyGeek]

The story for how those statistics were obtained must be quite interesting.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

4 hours ago, Ultradave said:

I've been testing the US 79 campaign. It IS a challenge!

A bit like having early Shermans and you are facing nothing but Pz Vs

Beautiful. I love it!

[chuckdyke]

11 hours ago, Rice said:

Prob depends on the target.

Trajectory, CM always claims that the trajectory of every weapon is calculated. The French 105 mm shoots at a much lower muzzle velocity than the NATO L7 105 mm. 

[chuckdyke]

10 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

Good stuff guys... in turn 5 as shown in my last post, the M-60A!(RISE+) fired two APFSDS rounds at the BMP... here is the ammo loadout for the M-60A!(RISE+)..

..for some reason I was thinking it fired HESH.

Yes, we can't nominate which shell is up probably beyond the scope of the game. 

[chuckdyke]

16 hours ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

Exactly, my point was that it makes as little sense to compare US army to South Vietnamese army as it does comparing Arab armies and Red Army. Even though they are in both cases mostly armed by and trained by their "sponsor".

US tactics are too much for some 3rd World Countries to adopt economically. No bad soldiers just incompetent generals at times. 

[Andy_101]

Really enjoying this!

[Bil Hardenberger]

Sixth & Seventh Minutes

 “Take calculated risks. That is quite different from being rash.”

George S. Patton

 

Warren continues to stick his nose out… this time it’s a standard  BMP-1P that is spotted by a tank from Tank Section 2…

…from top to bottom:  M-60A1(RISE+) (1/6) fires one APFSDS round, which misses, but does inflict one casualty… then quickly followed up by two HESH rounds... though the first of these was all it took to kill this BMP.

Range:  1270m

There are now at least four infantry or recon teams moving towards Dolbach, and one of those looks like an HQ... so either one full platoon, or parts of two.  They have a long way to go yet and they are on foot so I expect they’ll be getting tired by the time they get there.

 Planned welcoming party:

·         I have pushed Scout 1’s M113A2 forwards to get a gun laid on their route

·         I have plotted a mortar strike in front of them… set to hit in about three minutes

A quick note, I am still biding my time here and gathering information.  Warren is being very cautious… I expected him to be a little more aggressive, and he has probably received his first reinforcements too so I will probably see some tanks soon, and the aggressiveness will ramp up.  I need to wait a bit until I get more information prior to moving on incomplete information. 

That said, I am going to move both of my M-150s into better positions to try and bag one of the BMPs I can see in the tree line yonder.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Bil Hardenberger