U.S. Thread - CM Cold War - BETA AAR - Battle of Dolbach Heights 1980

[Bil Hardenberger]

Eleventh & Twelfth Minutes – “…damn your eyes.”

 

“There are not enough Indians in the world to defeat the Seventh Cavalry.”

George Armstrong Custer

 

Minute 11:

This might have been a pivotal turn and Warren must be reeling... his email simply said, “…damn your eyes”.  Warren is a pretty confident guy, but it could be that I am getting under his skin now.

Planned moves for this turn…

• Tank Section 1 was moving to the rear slightly to improve their Hull Down status to the T-64Bs near NAI3
• Tank Section 2 was moving forward to aggressively interdict the enemy vehicles near NAI2.. note that at the end of the last turn I had one BMP-1P spotted on this flank and this was the only enemy vehicle identified on this flank.

Note the identified enemy units important for this turn’s resolution. Also note that the T-64B tagged in the following image, is NOT the same one I beat up on last turn.  I ordered my M-60s to ignore that one and concentrate on this second tank further back in the tree line.

For each of the following overall images, the firing unit is circled in white, the target is circled in yellow.

Tank Section 1 – 1/9: 

At the end of last turn this tank left a round in the air, and this turn it connected with a BMP-1…

Kill #1

 

Tank Section 1 – 1/8: 

Manually targeted the T-64B in the tree line… first round was a penetration but several HEAT rounds later this T-64B was knocked out.  Tough bastards.

Note that in this image, a T-64A has been spotted on Warren’s left flank (my right).

Kill #2

 

Tank Section 2 – 1/5: 

The T-64A was moving laterally in front of the treeline… it was an easy two rounds into its flank.

Kill #3

Note the BMP-1P in the background of the above image…

 

Tank Section 2 – 1/6: 

At the end of the turn, this tank finally killed the last of the Recon Platoon BMPs that was on this flank (this was the BMP that killed my M-150 last turn).  It took two rounds to kill it... a third set it alight.

Kill #4

Note the knocked out T-64A in the background.

 

Finally at the end of the eleventh minute, my 1^st platoon’s recon scouts spotted a platoon of T-62s… this will be his final reinforcement.  These are located just beyond the overpass and behind the line of BMP-1s overwatching the infantry swarming toward the town.

 

 

Minute 12:

No images this turn… but in the twelfth minute Tank Section 2 (1/5 and 1/6) spot two more T-64As in the trees near the one destroyed last turn next to the BMP-1P… they hit them both several times (one received a gun hit), no penetrations and both were alive at the end of the turn, but they had both moved back and away from the line.. one or both of these tanks might be severely damaged and will be engaged again next turn.

 I've been building to this.for a while, but now... 

...Warren’s left flank is open.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Bil Hardenberger

[Bil Hardenberger]

Thirteenth Minute - The Board is Set

 

“In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity.”

Art of War, Sun Tsu

 

Minute 13:

1st Platoon's Tank Section 2 continued to harass the two T-64As on the Soviet left (my right) flank.  These are the two T-64s that took a beating in the 12th minute... and they each take several more rounds into their front hull and turret, both backing into the woods the whole time.

T-64A (right side) manages to escape.. but it has to be damaged.  I am considering it a mission kill until I know otherwise.  If it pops back up later I will address it then.

T-64A (left side) takes a penetrating hit at the end of the turn.. and this one kills it:

 

CURRENT SITUATION

This is a busy image, and I apologize for that. 

Enemy Situation:

• Recon Company remnants are pushing forward and are on my extreme left.
• Warren's dismounted infantry and scouts continue to push toward Dolbach, supported by the Recon Company BMP-1Ps/BMR-1 and the Infantry Company's BMP-1s
• BMP-1s in overwatch are starting to move forward some, but are remaining behind the infantry for now
• T-62 Company is still being held in reserve, but is moving forward slightly
• T-64B Platoon is down to one fully functional tank and one wounded and probably gun damaged tank
• T-64A platoon is down to one wounded and probably disabled tank

My Support Plan:

• 2 of my 3 available M-106 Mortars are starting to drop rounds in front of the Soviet infantry.  Timing with indirect fire is always a challenge, but I am liking how this is shaping up

• One of 155mm batteries is dropping spotting rounds for a linear fire mission as shown below.  Fire for effect should start in a couple turns.

• I do have more planned, but am saving that for the next report!  Yes, I will finally let you in on the planning that I have been working toward for several turns now... stay tuned!

Finally, some Tank Porn!!

BMP-1P:

BMR-1 (Recon Company CO's ride:

Edited March 6, 2021 by Bil Hardenberger

[Holien]

Thanks for the weekend treat, your kills are building up, I guess you have the spotting edge at the moment. 

Looking forward to seeing how the arty works out for you. 

Cheers 

[The_MonkeyKing]

I am surprised by the somewhat lackluster performance of the T-64s. Are they really that blind compared to the M-60?

[Guest Gareth Thompson]

1 hour ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

I am surprised by the somewhat lackluster performance of the T-64s. Are they really that blind compared to the M-60?

Hardly surprising to me. We are just a few minutes in to a single action. This represents a very small sample size, and it is very easy to account for the T-64's poor performance up to this point as simply being bad luck. Even if the T-64 significantly out-performed the M-60 most of the time it does not strike me as vanishingly unlikely that in a single randomly selected action the M-60s would dominate.

Although I would be surprised if, once this game is released and I have an opportunity to play many engagements with T-64s facing M-60s (increase the sample size), it still turns out that the M-60 almost always comes out on top. That would overturn a basic assumption I had made about the balance of forces in this time period.

[Ryujin]

Doesn't seem like the T-64s were turned out or hull down. There's a lot of factors here so it's hard to really tell the spotting, but the T-64s shouldn't really be at a disadvantage with optics AFAIK. Being turned out, sitting in position, crew quality, and information sharing probably favored the M60s shooting first. Once they shot the T-64s didn't really have anywhere to go but slowly backwards, so they kept getting hit. The T-64 is a good tank, but I don't think the outcome seemed that strange in this situation. 

[slysniper]

Running test on the game I can inform you that there is very little spotting difference as to time between the units.

Position and actions in the game are a bigger factor as to who spots first than the tank unit doing the spotting.

The M60 does have a spotting advantage. 

 

And since most rounds on target will be kills from either side, the side that spots first has a huge advantage.

 

If you place the units out on a pool table and have a duel. The M60 in the game has a overall advantage.

But playing in battle conditions, I have found the parity to be closer than any other game period BF has produced.

[markus544]

As is the old tried and true observation is "He who sees first fires first usually gets the hits first"... Or something along those lines.  First order of a gun fight is, "Bring a gun".

[Bil Hardenberger]

The T-64 is a bad-ass tank.  Take M-60A1s of any flavor (and I have all three types in this game) against it one on one on a flat map and the T-64 wins the majority of times.. mainly because its armor is so tough against the rounds carried in the M-60A1... not until the M-60A3 and M-1 does the curve start to flex the other way due to the superior ammo and optics they carry.

What you are seeing now is a difference in positioning... my M-60s are all hull down, Warren's tanks are not.. plus he is moving into my line of sight, mine are stationary most times... a moving tank is easier to spot.  My tanks are keyholed... his are set up in non-hull down positions in treelines.. now I'm a fan of treeline positions for armor, but I will take a hulldown position over them any day.  One T-64A presented its flank to me in front of the trees.. it lasted seconds after getting spotted.

On average it is taking me multiple rounds to kill the T-64s, in the case of the most recent T-64A it must have taken 8-10 hits (lost count) over two turns before the tank was destroyed... if it had been the T-64A firing at my M-60A1, the M-60A1 would have been destroyed with the first hit in most cases.

Bil

Edited March 7, 2021 by Bil Hardenberger

[Holien]

Well maybe we will get to see some of your tanks go pop?

Nice to see Sly is a BETA tester now, of course he will be even harder to defeat in a HtH.

Looking forward to the next instalments. 

[chuckdyke]

What is the gun-depression of a T64 compared to the M60?

[Rinaldi]

40 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

What is the gun-depression of a T64 compared to the M60?

Gun depression is not modelled in game in the strictest sense, but it will become apparent as a large negative time addition to engaging a target after acquiring. Most often you'll notice this when fighting infantry with armored vehicles in close quarters - that's been in game since the Market Garden module. EDIT: I want to clarify this is strictly noticeable at extremely close range, this was an addition in MG to better represent the difficulty a tank (of any era) faces in fighting infantry in built-up or close in terrain. It was meant to even the odds for light infantry when conducting close attacks on armour. 

Soviet-era tanks are squat with a low centre of gravity and a longer or comparable barrel to NATO counterparts. As a rule they had worse gun depression as a result. Again, not modelled in game unless something has changed beyond my knowledge. 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Rinaldi
Clarification.

[The_MonkeyKing]

2 minutes ago, Rinaldi said:

Gun depression is not modelled in game in the strictest sense, but it will become apparent as a large negative time addition to engaging a target after acquiring. Most often you'll notice this when fighting infantry with armored vehicles in close quarters - that's been in game since the Market Garden module.

Soviet-era tanks are squat with a low centre of gravity and a longer or comparable barrel to NATO counterparts. As a rule they had worse gun depression as a result. Again, not modelled in game unless something has changed beyond my knowledge. 

New info for me. Thanks!

[MikeyD]

In the real world M60 series gun depression was -10 degrees, T72 was -6 degrees. This actually caused problems on M60A2. On an incline at max depression a M60A2 tank commander wouldn't be able to see over the turret nose so they had to include a very tall cupola to get him high enough to peer over it. Take a guess what's usually the first thing to get hit on an M60A2.

[Rice]

2 hours ago, MikeyD said:

In the real world M60 series gun depression was -10 degrees, T72 was -6 degrees. This actually caused problems on M60A2. On an incline at max depression a M60A2 tank commander wouldn't be able to see over the turret nose so they had to include a very tall cupola to get him high enough to peer over it. Take a guess what's usually the first thing to get hit on an M60A2.

How much time have you had with the M60A2? I'm curious as to it's performance against T-64s.

[chuckdyke]

I know it affected the outcome on the Golan Heights between Israeli Centurions vs Syrian T62's. The 115 mm Gun on the T62 was at least on par with the L7 105 mm gun. As attacker all the hull of the T62's were exposed, The Centurions were mostly fire from cover thanks to the gun depression. Longe range gunnery was achieved by specialist training of the crews. I imagine the M60 woud have the upper hand against an attacking force. The T64 I understand is a generation ahead. Do they fire ATGM's like the T72's do and is this part of the game? Or is the APDSFS their sole ammunition vs armor? You need to be David outranging Goliath in a firefight. 

Edited March 7, 2021 by chuckdyke
adding

[MikeyD]

Quote

How much time have you had with the M60A2?

I've played M60A2 alot because the one scenario I got into the title fields  M60A2. There's lots to criticize about M60A2. The slow rate of fire, the inaccuracy of the low velocity conventional rounds, the long flight time and limited range of the missile. And that thing I talked about above - this happened to me just 5 minutes ago. 

[slysniper]

ok, I was referring to a M60 A3 version before.

So just to tease you with the forth coming game.

I did a quick test  of dueling tanks, pool table conditions at 1300 meters.

T64A VS M60A1 (WITH NO EXTRAS)

ALLOWED COMBAT FOR ONLY ONE MINUTE.

Both tanks unbuttoned

 

Results.

T64a was the first to spot and fire

30 tanks tested.

11 - M60A1 losses

1 -T64A LOSS

 

BILL WAS RIGHT IN THAT THE T64A IN THIS TEST ANYWAY WAS ABLE TO WITHSTAND MORE HITS THAN THE M60

AND THAT WAS A FACTOR FOR THE RESULT.

 

 

 

 

[MikeyD]

That's the penalty for being about 1/3rd taller than your opponent.   I  have an M60A3 in my home town acting as a rusting 'gate guardian' behind the local post office. That tank is a BIG mutha! Spotting it is like spotting Chartres cathedral in the distance as you drive into town.

[c3k]

10 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

The T-64 is a bad-ass tank.  Take M-60A1s of any flavor (and I have all three types in this game) against it one on one on a flat map and the T-64 wins the majority of times.. mainly because its armor is so tough against the rounds carried in the M-60A1... not until the M-60A3 and M-1 does the curve start to flex the other way due to the superior ammo and optics they carry.

What you are seeing now is a difference in positioning... my M-60s are all hull down, Warren's tanks are not.. plus he is moving into my line of sight, mine are stationary most times... a moving tank is easier to spot.  My tanks are keyholed... his are set up in non-hull down positions in treelines.. now I'm a fan of treeline positions for armor, but I will take a hulldown position over them any day.  One T-64A presented its flank to me in front of the trees.. it lasted seconds after getting spotted.

On average it is taking me multiple rounds to kill the T-64s, in the case of the most recent T-64A it must have taken 8-10 hits (lost count) over two turns before the tank was destroyed... if it had been the T-64A firing at my M-60A1, the M-60A1 would have been destroyed with the first hit in most cases.

Bil

This is an excellent essay on how these tanks seem to balance in the game. The T-64 should be treated with a LOT of respect, and not just a little fear, by the US player.

When you do get frontal hits on a T-64, it seems to take several strikes to destroy it. 

[wadepm]

13 minutes ago, slysniper said:

ok, I was referring to a M60 A3 version before.

So just to tease you with the forth coming game.

I did a quick test  of dueling tanks, pool table conditions at 1300 meters.

T64A VS M60A1 (WITH NO EXTRAS)

ALLOWED COMBAT FOR ONLY ONE MINUTE.

Both tanks unbuttoned

Would the results change much at, say, 3000 meters?

[MikeyD]

I did a 3000m test map and I'm trying to recall the results. 3000m is beyond the range that APFSDS can hole M60A1 frontally. (it may be beyond the range a real world T72 can even aim). M60A1 would be firing HEAT at that range (the other rounds would be useless) and HEAT penetration stats don't change with distance. Real world T72's gun doesn't elevate enough to fire HEAT beyond 3,000. T64 and T80 B models do have the missile, though, with a theoretical range out to 4km.

[Sequoia]

Didn't someone post somewhere that it was rare to have a LOS over 1000m in Germany?

[IICptMillerII]

On 3/7/2021 at 2:42 PM, Rice said:

How much time have you had with the M60A2? I'm curious as to it's performance against T-64s.

It does not perform well against the T-64 in a stand up fight. 

22 hours ago, Sequoia said:

Didn't someone post somewhere that it was rare to have a LOS over 1000m in Germany?

1500m is the figure I see thrown around most often. 

[sawomi]

As someone who lives in Germany I can say it's defenitely not "rare" to have a LOS over 1,5km.