Engineering, obstacle breaching and mineclearing capabilities?

[Gkenny]

Will we see the introduction of functional engineering vehicles or attachments for vehicles in the game? They would play a large role in any major conflict such as this. I'm thinking of stuff like minerollers/mineplows for the M60A2, T72s, etc so that we can breach minefields and obstacles with vehicles, as in CMBN with the sherman flail?

 

 

[Thewood1]

That's a very good question.  The engineering side is an area CM still has a lot of gaps.  In any Fulda Gap play, breeching and bridging is going to be key.

[akd]

Minerollers are fairly straightforward, not so different then the flail tanks we already have, with perhaps some modified rules.  Also part of the core TO&E, not a specialist unit.

[A Canadian Cat]

I agree this would be nice to have. The thing about nice to haves is they frequently don't get done until later if at all. I have no idea what the future holds but... The equipment list on the CMCW site doesn't mention engineering equipment so I think you know how to set expectations.

[Gkenny]

18 minutes ago, IanL said:

I agree this would be nice to have. The thing about nice to haves is they frequently don't get done until later if at all. I have no idea what the future holds but... The equipment list on the CMCW site doesn't mention engineering equipment so I think you know how to set expectations.

I think this is kind of a necessity for a european based cold war gone hot scenario to be completely honest.  Not only that, I think this really applies to pretty much all the modern titles (SF2, BS, and this game). 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Gkenny

[MOS:96B2P]

2 hours ago, akd said:

Minerollers are fairly straightforward, not so different then the flail tanks we already have, with perhaps some modified rules.  Also part of the core TO&E, not a specialist unit.

 

2 hours ago, IanL said:

I agree this would be nice to have. The thing about nice to haves is they frequently don't get done until later 

This is all I read.    Everything else was garbled in the electronic warfare radio jamming ...................    

[Sgt.Squarehead]

3 hours ago, Gkenny said:

I think this is kind of a necessity for a european based cold war gone hot scenario to be completely honest.  Not only that, I think this really applies to pretty much all the modern titles (SF2, BS, and this game).

Have to say that I fully agree with this sentiment.....Also for CM:RT too.  All the main armour spearheads in Bagration were led By T-34 mine-roller companies, it's a major omission IMHO. 

[Geoff-Ludumpress]

I hope there is some demining abilities in the eng. units.   I don't know why it's difficult to add the code for mine rollers is already written/running in Normandy, Sherman crab. Is there no t34 mine roller in Fire and Rubble?

[Sgt.Squarehead]

On 2/17/2021 at 4:51 AM, Geoff-Ludumpress said:

Is there no t34 mine roller in Fire and Rubble?

Apparently not.....Really hoping we might see them in a CM:RT Vehicle Pack and sooner rather than later.

A VP would be a great way to add a whole bunch of interesting vehicles that didn't make the main packs.

Then, surely, it has to be time for Kursk! 

 

[IICptMillerII]

On 2/16/2021 at 9:51 PM, Geoff-Ludumpress said:

I hope there is some demining abilities in the eng. units.   I don't know why it's difficult to add the code for mine rollers is already written/running in Normandy, Sherman crab. Is there no t34 mine roller in Fire and Rubble?

Apparently it is more complicated than that. I know, I asked more than once. 

I want more engineering equipment just as much as everyone else does. Its always a future possibility. 

[Geoff-Ludumpress]

8 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

Apparently it is more complicated than that. I know, I asked more than once. 

I want more engineering equipment just as much as everyone else does. Its always a future possibility. 

I'm sure it is. I remembered that the M1132 Stryker Engineer Squad Vehicle didn't have this capability either and they noted that in the manual. Maybe you could just have a button for it, like when you deploy a weapon. Troop demining works on proximity/time that's also an option.    The thing is that it adds a big level of tactical authenticity  to games, as happened when they added EW & UAV's to games. This technical accuracy/capability is what keeps Combat Missions above other games for realism.

[Thewood1]

And its not just mines.  Bridging ditches, breaching obstacles, etc. are a major part of Warsaw Pact and NATO plans.  These aren't just strategic or operational plans.  Entire tactical battles are fought over getting a bridging unit in place in Steel Beasts.  CM in modern time frames always seems somewhat sterile without the engineering aspect.  It's been a future possibility for a decade.  I also understand that its not going to sell many new units like new AFVs do.

[IICptMillerII]

28 minutes ago, Thewood1 said:

CM in modern time frames always seems somewhat sterile without the engineering aspect.

I completely agree. I really hope we see some general engineering vehicle additions to the modern CM games at some point in the future, maybe even as an engineering vehicle pack, or as part of a later module. Trust me, I asked on more than one occasion to have even something like mine plows/rollers included, but its just not in the cards at the moment. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

23 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

I completely agree. I really hope we see some general engineering vehicle additions to the modern CM games at some point in the future, maybe even as an engineering vehicle pack, or as part of a later module. Trust me, I asked on more than one occasion to have even something like mine plows/rollers included, but its just not in the cards at the moment. 

Possibly for the first time in CM history, everyone seems to be on the same side about this one.....On that basis I figure it's only a matter of time. 

[sburke]

On 2/16/2021 at 11:23 AM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Have to say that I fully agree with this sentiment.....Also for CM:RT too.  All the main armour spearheads in Bagration were led By T-34 mine-roller companies, it's a major omission IMHO. 

In the assault period but the vast majority of engagements would not be represented by Mine roller led companies.  BFs philosophy has always been to spend the effort on the usual, not the edge.  Too many of our likes are wrapped up in the edge cases that would require more effort from BF that we then would likely not even use .  We want it like we want everything.  That being said... yeah I'd like it too.  My list of wants is no shorter than anyone else's  

Experimental detachments of PT-34 mine roller tanks were formed in May 1942, and saw action at Voronezh in August. The first Independent Engineer Tank Regiment with eighteen mine rollers was fielded in October 1943. At least five regiments were formed during the war.

So we are talking creating the effort to reproduce the effect, the model etc for essentially 90 tanks?  I think we tend to overestimate the actual use of an item that captures our imagination.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Dude.....One word, 'Jagdtiger'. 

Mine-rollers were an essential part of Soviet assault formations, you said it yourself, and what are the Soviets doing in Berlin?  Oh my, that sure looks like an assault to me, quite a serious one TBH.....They really do seem to be quite cross! 

I think you are counting for heavy regiments, because by my count more PT-34 mine-rollers saw action on the Ostfront than Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger & Pz.II Luchs did on all fronts, combined.....But guess what, we have all three in CM, presumably because they captured somene's imagination! 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[sburke]

5 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Dude.....One word, 'Jagdtiger'. 

I think you are counting for heavy regiments, because by my count more PT-34 mine-rollers saw action on the Ostfront than Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger & Pz.II Luchs did on all fronts, combined.....But guess what, we have all three in CM, presumably because they captured somene's imagination! 

Fair point but in what TYPE engagement do Mine rollers appear and how many of those do you think scenario designers are going to make?  Throw in QBs etc. How many CMBN scenarios have you played with flail tanks?  Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing they not be included, just that if we had them I don't think we'd use them all that much.  A late 70's/early 80's battle for Germany was going to be by necessity a short affair.  For Cold war I think you will find the vast majority of what gets produced isn't going to be well defended positions the combat engineers have had time to shape.  They'll more likely be hastily set up defensive positions or meeting engagements. This is true of all the CM families.  Players tend to not play those type of assault scenarios near as much, though they do play them.  Think back on CM and the Normandy landings.  We'd all love to be able to fully create those with landing craft etc, but how often would we actually do that?  Hell folks got pretty sick of hedgerows quickly IIRC. 

As to the count, that was a quick google of the minerollers and Russian army.  Not exactly an exhaustive review.    

Edited February 22, 2021 by sburke

[Sgt.Squarehead]

It seems to me that some cross game Vehicle Packs might be an idea ('Engineer Pack' for instance might add these types of vehicles to ALL the CM games, the more titles you own, the better value you get from the pack).

The demand for them is clearly there, they keep on coming up and it ain't always me!  Given the games' not altogether brilliant handling of mines, the demand for de-mining capabilities is not unsurprising. 

[Sequoia]

This one might be a good candidate for an easier add on. The M728. The gun is 165mm with HE rounds used for close support so it actually is used frontline. I say it might be an easier add on as you could use the "Rhino" code from Normandy for the dozer blades, but Battlefront doesn't like to do things half assed so maybe not.

 

[FlemFire]

I really wish the scenario designers would just stop using mines until there are better solutions.

 

But also... how often do engineering feats even take place WHILE action is occurring at the level of your average CM battle? Like does one expect to see minesweepers out there blowing up mines while enemy armor is active within 1500m? If you blow a bridge, doesn't that basically elevate the problem to a much higher operational level? Just seems a weird clash of scope to me.

[Gkenny]

9 hours ago, Khalerick said:

But also... how often do engineering feats even take place WHILE action is occurring at the level of your average CM battle? Like does one expect to see minesweepers out there blowing up mines while enemy armor is active within 1500m? If you blow a bridge, doesn't that basically elevate the problem to a much higher operational level? Just seems a weird clash of scope to me.

Full blown engineering vehicles conducting complex breaches/bridge laying may be on the larger scope on what CM can model, but that doesn't excuse the lack of simple minerolling/dozer attachments for tanks/IFVs/APCs. These are not uncommon things, and not only given to engineering units, especially in modern times. I mean it is really quite perplexing that the only CM games with vehicles that can traverse minefields are in CMBN and CMFB in WW2. Hell even the stryker combat engineering variant is modelled in CMBS, but it doesn't have any special functionality. 

[chuckdyke]

Minesweeping T34's should have been in RT from the beginning.

Soviet Storm. WW2 in the East - Operation Bagration. Episode 11. StarMedia. Babich-Design - YouTube

[Thewood1]

9 hours ago, Gkenny said:

Full blown engineering vehicles conducting complex breaches/bridge laying may be on the larger scope on what CM can model

I am not sold on that.  NATO and especially the Warsaw Pact forces planned for, trained for, and expected to have tactical level battles for breaching.  I know Steel Beasts, which is used for relatively detailed training by numerous armored forces, just released a version with more detailed engineering functions.  There was a debate on the boards from gamers about the necessity of investing in those functions.  The reply from former and existing military people was it is necessary and a critical part of combined arms operational and tactical combat, especially in Europe.  As you can see, they always had some detailed capabilities.  Mine clearing (MICLIC, plows, and engineers) was the basic one that has been in for years, but building scrapes on the fly and ditch crossing is relatively recent.

 

Engineering AFV building scrapes -

 

 

Breaching ditches -

 

 

Mine plows and mine clearing -

 

 

Explosive mine clearing (6 years old) -

 

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, Thewood1 said:

Mine plows and mine clearing -

 

+1.  Interesting videos.  I especially like the second half of the mine plow video.  I hope we see something similar in the modern CM titles someday.