Breach team with demo charges and Pioneer team with mines

[BornGinger]

I'm in the making of a scenario of a battle which occured between 25 - 29 August 1944 (the scenario is set in Novemver 1944 because of Final Blitzkrieg) where the German forces had to push part of an Allied force back to the other side of a river and also blow up the bridge, to make it harder for them to cross the river again, and thus establish the river as the new frontline.

 

I did a test to see whether three breach teams would blow the bridge up when being told to use the blast movement across the bridge's long sides or throw their demo charges on the bridge, like they can do on armoured vehicles, if I used the target command [T]. Unfortunately they didn't blast the bridge and had after 15 minutes only threwn all their grenades but one onto the bridge as well as used all their ammo from shooting at it. All their demo charges were left.

 

So I'll have to solve the blowing up the bridge objective by giving the Germans heavier artillery as reinforcements a bit into the scenario.

 

It's a pity that Battlefront didn't give us the chance to use breach teams to blow bridges up and I hope they will in a future patch or in the engine 5 Steven mentioned in the beginning of January.

 

Another thing Battlefront didn't give us was the ability to use pioneers to place mines although they gave us the ability to use them to mark mines.

 

If pioneers could place mines I could have used them to place anti-vehicle mines on the bridge which would blow up when the Allied player sent his tanks over the bridge and that way block their use of the bridge (would of course require of me to give the German player another objective than "destroy objective") and maybe the explosion of the mines even would make a hole in the bridge.

 

Having the ability to use pioneers to place mines could probably make them more useful and also make battles more fun as we had to read our opponents moves to try to figure out where to move the pioneers up so they could place mines before the opponent arrives to a certain position we have guessed.  

 

So I hope that we one day will get the ability to blow bridges up with demo charges and also get the ability to use pioneers to place mines.

[FlemFire]

I feel like both rigging bridges and laying mines occupies way more time than is captured in CM's scale. Now what would be really nice is if you could use breaching charges to destroy mines...

[chuckdyke]

There is no innovation with mines. A tactic was to attach two ropes on a mine and two troopers from opposite foxholes could drag a mine underneath a tank. Infantry digging mines up and use it against the enemy. 

[Warts 'n' all]

5 hours ago, Khalerick said:

Now what would be really nice is if you could use breaching charges to destroy mines...

You can, and I think that is has been shown on yt in "School of Hard Knocks" for example. The problem is that you normally kill or wound your own men too.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Any HE will clear mines to some extent.

To solve @BornGinger's bridge issue, what the CM Games broadly need are (as someone does keep pointing out).....Uncons! 

Dress an Uncon Fighter IED Triggerman up as a Combat Engineer/Commando/German Pioneer (replace his AK as needed).....Job's done. 

Apologies for using a CM:SF picture, but it's not like I have much choice.....It's this or CM:A, because apparently, in the CM world, irregular warfare only started in the 1970s! 

PS - Anyone up for CM:IW (Irregular Warfare) a pack that adds Uncons to all the games?  Doing it this way means the whingers don't have to have Uncons (too scared of their shiny Blue tanks taking a good shoeing), but the rest of us can still get on with having realistic games. 

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[BornGinger]

1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

what the CM Games broadly need are (as someone does keep pointing out).....Uncons!

I guess uncon is an abbrevation of unconventional.

What the German forces used in that battle was a pioneer team that managed to set explosives on the bridge and destroy it after they had managed to push the Allied forces back to the south bank. Although this only hampered the Allied forces' offensive for about three weeks it was a mission accomplished.

So being able to use explosives in FB which can be set off like they are in SF2 or maybe be able to use demo charges to blow up bridges would be great.

Edited February 6, 2021 by BornGinger

[Sgt.Squarehead]

24 minutes ago, BornGinger said:

I guess uncon is an abbrevation of unconventional. And, yes, what the German forces used in that battle was a pioneer team that managed to set explosives on the bridge and destroy it after they had managed to push the Soviets back to the south bank. Although this only hampered the Allied forces' offensive for about three weeks it was a mission completed.

Yup, there are two flavours 'Combatant' and 'Fighter'.....You'll note that I was quite specific in stating:

1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Dress an Uncon Fighter IED Triggerman up as a Partisan/Commando/German Pioneer

That's because 'Uncon Fighters' are treated pretty much like regular troops in the game engine, whereas 'Uncon Combatants' get a special concealment bonus depending on the density of the civilian population.

I modified my post above replacing 'Partisan' with 'Combat Engineer' as, IMHO, Partisans should be eligible to benefit from this concealment bonus when the civilian density is high (and thus should be treated as Uncon Combatants).

Edited February 6, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Sgt.Squarehead]

24 minutes ago, BornGinger said:

So being able to use explosives in FB which can be set off like they are in SF2 or maybe be able to use demo charges to blow up bridges would be great.

Yup.....As a scenario designer, you don't actually even need a player controlled unit to go near the bridge. 

Simply park an immobilised truck from the player's side on the bridge (remembering to move the dismounted driver back to friendly lines), stick two Huge IEDs under it (I often stack these with small IEDs, just to be sure) and have at least two Triggermen with LOS (to both the truck & the IEDs) at game start.

The bridge will be gone by turn 2 (or if you want to delay it, set up precisely as above, but then have the Triggermen spawn as reinforcements). 

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[BornGinger]

32 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

and have at least two Triggermen with LOS (to both the truck & the IEDs) at game start. The bridge will be gone by turn 2 ...

If this is possible to do about an hour after the game has started it would be great. In the scenario, as it was historically, the German forces will have to retake two small villages on their way to the bridge, to secure their flank, and only after that the player would be able to drive that truck onto the bridge and set the explosives.

It wouldn't be correct to have everything set to blow up already in the beginning of the scenario.

But I'm afraid we'll never have the possibility to blow up bridges with explosives set by a team in the WW2 games.

What I'll have to do now is to use an FO and later on add heavy artillery, or an airplane with bombs, as reinforcement which the FO can call for to blow up the bridge.

Edited February 6, 2021 by BornGinger

[Sgt.Squarehead]

38 minutes ago, BornGinger said:

If this is possible to do about an hour after the game has started it would be great.

That sort of duration would be trickier, as someone would be bound to kill that truck (the trigger) with a long range shot.....However if you can live with a brief moment of 'implausibility' just before the blinding-flash and the bridge going 'Bye-bye', it's all still perfectly doable.....Just spawn the immobilised truck and the driver in at turn 60.

I'd be interested to know whether a dismounted vehicle 'Ammo Dump' would be a valid IED target (it would be a great idea), but sadly 'Ammo Dumps' and 'IEDs' don't co-exist in any of the CM games right now.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[MOS:96B2P]

21 minutes ago, BornGinger said:

What I'll have to do now is to use an FO and later on add heavy artillery, or an airplane with bombs, as reinforcement which the FO can call for to blow up the bridge.

I also think it would be useful and lead to some interesting scenarios if bridges, in the WW2 titles, could be brought down with demo charges. 

In the WW2 titles I think your above idea is probably the closest to destroying the bridge you can get.  150mm or greater artillery and a TRP under the bridge could, with enough shots and luck, destroy the bridge.  I also wonder if a wood bridge would be easier to destroy than a concrete bridge.  I never tested that.  Also @Sgt.Squarehead gave me an idea reference ammo dumps.  A large allied ammo dump under the bridge would be invisible to the German player (so would not look strange).  However if the ammo dump took a hit of 150mm it would create a large explosion which would increase the chances of destroying the bridge.  I've seen a concrete bridge destroyed when a burning vehicle under the bridge had ammo cook off and explode.

You have an interesting concept for a scenario.  Good luck.          

[sburke]

1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

That sort of duration would be trickier, as someone would be bound to kill that truck (the trigger) with a long range shot.....However if you can live with a brief moment of 'implausibility' just before the blinding-flash and the bridge going 'Bye-bye', it's all still perfectly doable.....Just spawn the immobilised truck and the driver in at turn 60.

I'd be interested to know whether a dismounted vehicle 'Ammo Dump' would be a valid IED target (it would be a great idea), but sadly 'Ammo Dumps' and 'IEDs' don't co-exist in any of the CM games right now.

yeah I had really wanted ammo dumps as targets for missions- i.e. find the enemy supply cache.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

7 minutes ago, sburke said:

yeah I had really wanted ammo dumps as targets for missions

@puje & @37mm managed to make something that works (with mods, obviously) for 'H&E'.....They can be seen by the opponent too (a bit too easily IMHO), which would work well for your idea.

It would be good if CM:SF2 & 'The Other CM Games' could finally meet.....Dismounted Vehicles AND Ammo Dumps, Uncons Spies & IEDs, 3d ditches (lousy fortifications, but lovely terrain-features).....Pretty sure there's more we could add to the list (like sloped & flat roof types in combination). 

PS - Independent Buildings! 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[BornGinger]

53 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

I also wonder if a wood bridge would be easier to destroy than a concrete bridge...  A large allied ammo dump under the bridge would be invisible to the German player ... if the ammo dump took a hit of 150mm it would create a large explosion which would increase the chances of destroying the bridge.

A wood bridge would be possible to destroy with 81mm mortars if I remember correctly from what I've seen in a youtube video of CMBN. But those bridges are also too short.

I didn't know that it's possible to blow up ammo dumps. I'll do a test with placing an allied ammo dump under the bridge and try to hit it with 81mm mortars to see if it will blow up. If 81mm mortars don't help I'll try with a bit heavier artillery. Heck, I'll try the breacher team as well to see whether they'll chuck their demo charges onto the ammo dump.

Thanks for that advice.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

8 minutes ago, BornGinger said:

I didn't know that it's possible to blow up ammo dumps. I'll do a test with placing an allied ammo dump under the bridge and try to hit it with 81mm mortars to see if it will blow up. If 81mm mortars don't help I'll try with a bit heavier artillery.

Why not try a Panzerschreck team with a timed target order? 

Put a stack of friendly ammo dumps under the bridge, then have the team spawn via reinforcement and open up with a painted Target Order.....Assuming a Panzerschreck will do the trick (it has to be an explosive weapon AFAIK), you should get a 'chain-detonation' & 'bye-bye bridge'! 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[FlemFire]

6 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

You can, and I think that is has been shown on yt in "School of Hard Knocks" for example. The problem is that you normally kill or wound your own men too.

 

Got a clip of it? I know you can detonate mines as an ancillary result of blowing stuff up around them like wires and hedgerows, but I've never been able to apply Blast to the mines themselves even if marked.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I belive 'Blast' can only be used on a linear obstacle, wall, wire etc.....I've never seen CM2 engineers use demolitions charges against mines with an Area Target command (they used to in CM1, TBH they'd chuck 'em at the smallest excuse).

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[BornGinger]

On 2/6/2021 at 4:05 PM, MOS:96B2P said:

A large allied ammo dump under the bridge would be invisible to the German player ... if the ammo dump took a hit of 150mm it would create a large explosion which would increase the chances of destroying the bridge.

I did tests with both Allied and German ammo dumps by positioning those ammo dumps both under and beside the bridge and I also tried it with Allied and German supply trucks.

Shooting at the ammo dumps with mortars (when it comes to Allied ammo dumps the spot where they are as they aren't visible for the German player) doesn't have any effect. The supply dumps don't explode.

Shooting with mortars or anything else at supply trucks which have ammo dumps beside them doesn't have any effect. The supply trucks explode but the dumps don't.

Using a heavy bomber (Focke Wulf 190) to destroy the bridge by using point target on the bridge doesn't have any effect as the bombs fall beside the bridge. To make sure the bombs hit the bridge I'd most likely have to point target at a spot beside the bridge and hope that one of the bombs fall on it. But that is a big gamble and those playing the scenario won't have so many chances to get it correct unless they have more than one Focke Wulf 190. And as none of the five bombs hit the bridge I don't even know if any of them would destroy it.

Using a heavy bomber to destroy the bridge by using area target and making a small cirkle around the bridge doesn't have any effect as the area target order causes the heavy bomber to strife the area beside the bridge. It seems bombs require a point target order.

The only thing that destroys the bridge is heavy artillery. And by using heavy artillery there won't be any need of a supply dump under or beside the bridge.

I do wish we could order the pioneer troops to set explosives on bridges. Could be interesting and exciting to see them do their job while a squad is supprting them to prevent them from being shot down by the opponents troops in some woods on the other side. If the first two pioneer teams didn't completely succeed, it would be time to send in the next two pioneer teams.

Except the requirement of using point target to make a heavy bomber drop its bombs I did learn something else. If two teams stand beside each other and only one of the teams shoot with their rifles and submachine guns the other team shares their ammo with them.

Edited February 7, 2021 by BornGinger

[Sgt.Squarehead]

@BornGinger.....So are you wanting Uncons yet? 

[BornGinger]

I wrote the words below in the post above which maybe is something that you would like too.

Quote

I do wish we could order the pioneer troops to set explosives on bridges. Could be interesting and exciting to see them do their job while a squad is supprting them to prevent them from being shot down by the opponents troops in some woods on the other side. If the first two pioneer teams didn't completely succeed, it would be time to send in the next two pioneer teams.

 

[MOS:96B2P]

5 minutes ago, BornGinger said:

I did tests with both Allied and German ammo dumps by positioning those ammo dumps both under and beside the bridge and I also tried it with Allied and German supply trucks.

I've never seen an 81mm mortar destroy an ammo dump just heavy artillery.  150mm artillery can destroy the bridge.  I'm not sure how consistently it will hit and bring the bridge down.  IIRC a bridge (especially a concrete bridge) is similar to a modular building which generally needs several hits before it collapses.  The number of hits probably depends on the type and size of the bridge.  If the 150mm arty is having trouble reliably destroying the bridge a large ammo dump (four truck supply platoon) under the bridge will increase the odds of getting the bridge destroyed.  If 150mm destroys it reliably in your tests then no need to mess around with ammo dumps.   

In your scenario it sounds like the destruction of the bridge plays a major role and needs to be destroyed for the scenario to work as intended.  For this reason I might also place a TRP under (or near) the bridge and have an FO arrive as a reinforcement along with a battery of 150mm (or some other appropriate heavy artillery).  So if the original FO is KIA the player has another to use.  Also with a TRP the FO does not have to expose himself during spotting and risk getting killed and the fire mission never happening.  

With all the above (heavy arty, ammo dump, extra FO & TRP) and some luck the bridge will probably be destroyed most of the time.     

[BornGinger]

2 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

In your scenario it sounds like the destruction of the bridge plays a major role ...  For this reason I might also place a TRP ... and have an FO arrive as a reinforcement along with a battery of 150mm...  

 

The destruction of the bridge was one of the objectives during this battle in 1944 and will give the German player the most points. But if he doesn't succeed, he is hopefully going to be able to stop the Allied player from crossing the bridge and that way prevent him from getting the points for holding and securing his both bridge objectives.

I'm not very fond of using TRPs as it might make the battle a bit too easy for the player having them. The only reason to have TRPs is if the player needs to defend a well prepared defense line. I don't think this battle was so very well prepared as the German forces starting position was a few kilometres away from the bridge. To have the artillery fall randomly is also more fun. But in this case a linear target over the bridge, from one river bank to the other river bank, will destroy it.

Artillery support from a 150mm howitzer can be requested by an officer so I'll need to use a 170mm cannon which requires an FO. And it will be necessary for the German player to clear the two smaller villages on the road towards the bridge before the FO can move down. But I might add another FO a bit closer to the end of the scenario just in case.

Edited February 7, 2021 by BornGinger

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Can you put barbed wire & mines on a bridge? 

Never tried, but wondering if you could stack some with a load of AT Mines and bring the bridge down that way (instruct the blayer to use Blast on the wire)?

Of course that idea won't work at all if the player actually has to use the bridge before blowing it.

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Sgt.Squarehead]

BTW - AFAIK nobody has clearly defined what 'Partisans' are or how they work in CM:F&R (and we haven't seen their TOE yet either).....They would be just the sort of chaps to have these sorts of abilities.

We can but live in hope!

[chuckdyke]

Combat Mission Bridges have enough bugs already. Throw some metal dinner plates on the road that causes an instant traffic jam. Executing a partisan was not a war-crime executing a POW was. Didn't do the POW much good in a typical 1-hour battle, emotions tend to run high. For blowing up Bridges. Forward observer 8-inch gun unlimited ammunition and a TRP. Place a TRP on the bridge call out a strike(Have to work out the Danger Close distance). Don't know when to cease fire you need thermal sight to see through the dust.. Preferably try to time it till there are some enemy units on the bridge.