JM´s Corner

[Lucky_Strike]

1 hour ago, slippy said:

I know what you mean Lucky Strike. I did a bit of modding for IL-2 a few years back, taught myself a bit of Java and I was away.

The modding became more addictive than playing the game, and I found I was my own worst critic, plus the more I learned the more I wanted to do, to the extent my self imposed workload became massive. I still have a shed load of unfinished projects and ideas that I wanted to implement.

I'll drop you a pm mate. Like I mentioned though texture modding is something I have very little idea of, so my results will probably be quite basic. Can you use photos as the base for a .bmp?

Therein lies the rub, it's all self-imposed, nobody's paying us and nobody's asking us to make these, it's the modder's lot in life Could be worse ...

PM away. And yes, most of my textures are actually derived from photos, take a close look at the bmps for my Hedgerow Hell to see this. Ground textures and stuff like trees look a little less like photos but have a look at nettles and the like. I would estimate well over 75% of my work is photos and finding the right images, the rest is what I do with them. I think much of the environment modding for CM is derived from photos. Even read in an interview with our Creators that the original AFV models for CMBO were made from photos of scale models.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to bake bread ... 

[benpark]

1 hour ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Even read in an interview with our Creators that the original AFV models for CMBO were made from photos of scale models.

In the days of film, even! I think I remember Steve writing that he had a turntable setup, like a pre-3D scan, with scale models.

Edited September 30, 2021 by benpark

[JM Stuff]

1 hour ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Therein lies the rub, it's all self-imposed, nobody's paying us and nobody's asking us to make these, it's the modder's lot in life Could be worse ...

PM away. And yes, most of my textures are actually derived from photos, take a close look at the bmps for my Hedgerow Hell to see this. Ground textures and stuff like trees look a little less like photos but have a look at nettles and the like. I would estimate well over 75% of my work is photos and finding the right images, the rest is what I do with them. I think much of the environment modding for CM is derived from photos. Even read in an interview with our Creators that the original AFV models for CMBO were made from photos of scale models.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to bake bread ... 

This is the best way to give the best overview with a good resolution image
I was not sure about the other plants but for the nettles yes I had recognized.

Hey Lucky 

Yesterday it was wood to cut  today bread to cut tomorrow the hunt after tomorrow fish ...
We really see that you are very busy, take some time to recover my friend

31 minutes ago, benpark said:

In the days of film, even! I think I remember Steve writing me that he had a turntable setup, like a pre-3D scan, with scale models.

It wouldn't be surprising that this is the best way to compare vehicle sizes, and don t make mistakes, and I think in this way BFC are already very good also with the camos, I think frenchy56 was the only to discover some problems sizes and he was "repair it"

 

JM

 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by JM Stuff

[Lucky_Strike]

1 hour ago, benpark said:

In the days of film, even! I think I remember Steve writing that he had a turntable setup, like a pre-3D scan, with scale models.

That's the one! Took it with him to models shows. I remember making a mod for Panthers by using pics I filched off some model club website, worked a treat. Whatever gets the job done ... 

[Lucky_Strike]

50 minutes ago, JM Stuff said:

This is the best way to give the best overview with a good resolution image
I was not sure about the other plants but for the nettles yes I had recognized.

I don't think there's anything I "drew" in Hedgerow Hell. Plenty of overpainting and masking but it's all natural baby! Well apart from a few fake plants, a dram of whisky*  to the one that can spot which leaves are plastic.

* delivered when we meet in the flesh 

50 minutes ago, JM Stuff said:

Yesterday it was wood to cut  today bread to cut tomorrow the hunt after tomorrow fish ...

This is the stuff of life ... it's my relaxation, along with a drop or two of the water of life ... uisce beatha ... and a game of CM of course

Edited September 30, 2021 by Lucky_Strike

[JM Stuff]

56 minutes ago, Lucky_Strike said:

I don't think there's anything I "drew" in Hedgerow Hell. Plenty of overpainting and masking but it's all natural baby! Well apart from a few fake plants, a dram of whisky*  to the one that can spot which leaves are plastic.

* delivered when we meet in the flesh 

This is the stuff of life ... it's my relaxation, along with a drop or two of the water of life ... uisce beatha ... and a game of CM of course

C est la vie ! 

[Falaise]

On 9/27/2021 at 11:23 PM, JM Stuff said:

 

 

 

 

it has "plus de gueule " with the traces of tracks

 

On 9/27/2021 at 2:53 AM, Lucky_Strike said:

Is this like a kind of aggregate stuck onto a tarred surface rolled flat with a large steamroller? I'd imagine it was simply applied every couple of years or so straight on top of the old surface.

Again, was this compacted with a heavy steamroller?

I'd imagine it acts like a big sponge in the rain, not very waterproof but rather soaking up the rain and allowing it to drain through. Would probably get full of pot holes after a few seasons, bit like our roads (take note Hampshire CC )

I do think we need a rain mod ...

yes that's it!
a priori in 1944 the Normandy roads were in good condition,
little road traffic (only the Germans and the administrations had cars) and the German authorities for strategic reasons took care of the road network

you guys are good !!!
on the other hand if I can allow myself @Lucky_Strike don't leave you detoured from your tree project, it's too great and important !!!!!!!

[Lucky_Strike]

9 minutes ago, Falaise said:

it has "plus de gueule " with the traces of tracks

 

yes that's it!
a priori in 1944 the Normandy roads were in good condition,
little road traffic (only the Germans and the administrations had cars) and the German authorities for strategic reasons took care of the road network

you guys are good !!!
on the other hand if I can allow myself @Lucky_Strike don't leave you detoured from your tree project, it's too great and important !!!!!!!

Thanks @Falaise it's great to have someone on the ground so to speak, you are an asset to us all.. So I actually think that Aris's mod for paved road type 1 is a good match to this surface type, very similar to the textures you showed us in your previous post. In the rain I guess it gets considerably darker in tone, but remains quite compacted and hard. Mud tracked onto the surface from fields and pot hole/craters would create some mess and slipperyness but would dry out in the hot sun adding dust to the surface. OK.

Don't worry about the trees and rest of the bocage, we are progressing with that. I have started to reach some conclusions with regards to what I can sensibly achieve in Blender for the 3D models, having a few good candidates for new tree models which I can soon show to the world.

[JM Stuff]

1 hour ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Thanks @Falaise it's great to have someone on the ground so to speak, you are an asset to us all.. So I actually think that Aris's mod for paved road type 1 is a good match to this surface type, very similar to the textures you showed us in your previous post. In the rain I guess it gets considerably darker in tone, but remains quite compacted and hard. Mud tracked onto the surface from fields and pot hole/craters would create some mess and slipperyness but would dry out in the hot sun adding dust to the surface. OK.

Don't worry about the trees and rest of the bocage, we are progressing with that. I have started to reach some conclusions with regards to what I can sensibly achieve in Blender for the 3D models, having a few good candidates for new tree models which I can soon show to the world.

 

1 hour ago, Falaise said:

it has "plus de gueule " with the traces of tracks

 

yes that's it!
a priori in 1944 the Normandy roads were in good condition,
little road traffic (only the Germans and the administrations had cars) and the German authorities for strategic reasons took care of the road network

you guys are good !!!
on the other hand if I can allow myself @Lucky_Strike don't leave you detoured from your tree project, it's too great and important !!!!!!!

Yes Stephane more mouth that's it, but not always compatible with some opinions, that's why we leave the mod on hold for a while to come back later with other more convincing arguments !

 

I told you @Lucky_Strike, @Falaise will explain about the real aspect of the road in Normandy he has also the advandtage to visit it and see some real older photography to compare,... and the "chery on the cake" this is his passion and almost proffession an allied for every situations !

 

JM

[Lucky_Strike]

On 9/27/2021 at 5:35 PM, slippy said:

Lastly, what controls the dust in SF2? Could that be implemented in CMBN for summer months?

Just done some quick exercises in generating clouds of dust ...

... they last for about thirty seconds but are very obvious ...

The proviso is that dust clouds only seem to appear on dirt roads (and presumably open dirt ground) as opposed to roads that look like dirt as in our favoured paved road 1 texture ...

... no dust

The moral of this little tale, don't trust a mod.

[Falaise]

No, the  thank you, it's for you guys! @JM Stuff @Lucky_Strike

The management of roads depends on their interest. The one useful to towns or villages are managed by it (route communale , RC on the maps) That allowing the economic life of the departments depend on the department (route départemental, RD on the map) and finally that of national interest, by the French state (route  nationale, RN on the map like the famous RN13)
In 1944 only the RN, national road were tarred
Falaise Caen; Cherbourg Caen.
It was 2 lanes road.
George MC in his "Wittman Demise" is perfectly right to represent it as the RN 158 near Cintheaux

the color is correct because the tar was covered with gravel as Lucky says: Is this like a kind of aggregate stuck onto a tarred surface rolled flat with a large steamroller? I'd imagine it was simply applied every couple of years or so straight on top of the old surface.

The other roads, which are called departmental roads (RD), were not much narrower but were covered with white macadam.
In this aerial photo from the 1950s, in vertical, the RN 158 (Caen Falaise) is dark because it is tarred. We see departmental who join it in white, covered with macadam
In the communes according to their importance and their wealth, the roads and streets were either paved, or tarred or covered with macadam.

When I got interested in this subject I interviewed elders and many did not remember what the roads were like and I had some difficulty finding the truth. The only thing that people remembered is that punctures were common because roads were littered with nails, the nails of horseshoes which were still heavily used by civilians and German armies !!!

here the appearance is good but it must be white (mixture of limestone and lime)

Edited October 1, 2021 by Falaise

[Falaise]

6 minutes ago, Falaise said:

 

bourde

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Falaise

[slippy]

10 minutes ago, Falaise said:

No, the  thank you, it's for you guys! @JM Stuff @Lucky_Strike

The management of roads depends on their interest. The one useful to towns or villages are managed by it (route communale , RC on the maps) That allowing the economic life of the departments depend on the department (route départemental, RD on the map) and finally that of national interest, by the French state (route  nationale, RN on the map like the famous RN13)
In 1944 only the RN, national road were tarred
Falaise Caen; Cherbourg Caen.
It was 2 lanes road.
George MC in his "Wittman Demise" is perfectly right to represent it as the RN 158 near Cintheaux

the color is correct because the tar was covered with gravel as Lucky says: Is this like a kind of aggregate stuck onto a tarred surface rolled flat with a large steamroller? I'd imagine it was simply applied every couple of years or so straight on top of the old surface.

The other roads, which are called departmental roads (RD), were not much narrower but were covered with white macadam.
In this aerial photo from the 1950s, in vertical, the RN 158 (Caen Falaise) is dark because it is tarred. We see departmental who join it in white, covered with macadam
In the communes according to their importance and their wealth, the roads and streets were either paved, or tarred or covered with macadam.

When I got interested in this subject I interviewed elders and many did not remember what the roads were like and I had some difficulty finding the truth. The only thing that people remembered is that punctures were common because roads were littered with nails, the nails of horseshoes which were still heavily used by civilians and German armies !!!

here the appearance is good but it must be white (mixture of limestone and lime)

Great facts Falaise, thanks very much

[Falaise]

thanks slippy
here even if the connection between the RM and the DR is not very nice, the appearance of the 2 roads is quite realistic

[JM Stuff]

I see one day we will be able to control the suspension of vehicles, and even their speed levels, and revise with Graviteam!

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by JM Stuff

[JM Stuff]

2 minutes ago, Falaise said:

thanks slippy
here even if the connection between the RM and the DR is not very nice, the appearance of the 2 roads is quite realistic

French 8 points, la France 8 points ! of 10 of course 

Very nice !

Edited October 1, 2021 by JM Stuff

[Falaise]

I modified the map, it is that of @George MC in Wittmann's  Demise, a curious sensation as if I was retouching the mona Lisa with my brush

Edited October 1, 2021 by Falaise

[JM Stuff]

Just now, Falaise said:

I modified the map, it is that of @George MC in Wittmann's  Demise, a curious sensation as if I was retouching the mona Lisa with my brush

A good brush Steph I like your job for me is already a nice difference !

[Vacillator]

1 hour ago, Falaise said:

I modified the map, it is that of @George MC in Wittmann's  Demise, a curious sensation as if I was retouching the mona Lisa with my brush

Lovely work and background info Steph,and yes the original @George MC scenario is still in my top three so I know what you mean .

[Lucky_Strike]

On 10/1/2021 at 9:31 PM, Falaise said:

thanks slippy
here even if the connection between the RM and the DR is not very nice, the appearance of the 2 roads is quite realistic

 

On 10/1/2021 at 9:13 PM, Falaise said:

No, the  thank you, it's for you guys! @JM Stuff @Lucky_Strike

The management of roads depends on their interest. The one useful to towns or villages are managed by it (route communale , RC on the maps) That allowing the economic life of the departments depend on the department (route départemental, RD on the map) and finally that of national interest, by the French state (route  nationale, RN on the map like the famous RN13)
In 1944 only the RN, national road were tarred
Falaise Caen; Cherbourg Caen.
It was 2 lanes road.
George MC in his "Wittman Demise" is perfectly right to represent it as the RN 158 near Cintheaux

the color is correct because the tar was covered with gravel as Lucky says: Is this like a kind of aggregate stuck onto a tarred surface rolled flat with a large steamroller? I'd imagine it was simply applied every couple of years or so straight on top of the old surface.

The other roads, which are called departmental roads (RD), were not much narrower but were covered with white macadam.
In this aerial photo from the 1950s, in vertical, the RN 158 (Caen Falaise) is dark because it is tarred. We see departmental who join it in white, covered with macadam
In the communes according to their importance and their wealth, the roads and streets were either paved, or tarred or covered with macadam.

When I got interested in this subject I interviewed elders and many did not remember what the roads were like and I had some difficulty finding the truth. The only thing that people remembered is that punctures were common because roads were littered with nails, the nails of horseshoes which were still heavily used by civilians and German armies !!!

here the appearance is good but it must be white (mixture of limestone and lime)

Thanks for your insightful notes M. Falaise. Incredibly useful as ever.

It does still leave a few questions in my mind though ... ye spake:

In 1944 only the RN, national road were tarred
Falaise Caen; Cherbourg Caen.
It was 2 lanes road.
George MC in his "Wittman Demise" is perfectly right to represent it as the RN 158 near Cintheaux

So really we won't see this type of road very often in maps/scenarios, but rather more of the RD, RC type and smaller dirt tracks?

This does make me wonder what would be the best approach to modelling this in game since the current narrow RC type/dirt road is rendered in game with just the one tile ie ground dirt road. Would a better approach be to use ground dirt road for dirt tracks, the lowest grade of surface, and perhaps ground gravel for RC type roads? Or somehow mod the paved road 1 textures to make it appear narrower for use as RC roads and mod paved road 2 to become RD type roads. This would then leave the highways style roads for RN which could then appear tarred as well, rather than cobbles that we have now? which segues into my next question ...

Ye spake:

The other roads, which are called departmental roads (RD), were not much narrower but were covered with white macadam.
In this aerial photo from the 1950s, in vertical, the RN 158 (Caen Falaise) is dark because it is tarred. We see departmental who join it in white, covered with macadam

I've seen plenty of photos of these chalky-looking surfaces and have even found a few nice textures that depict them quite well. In game we don't really have a chalky-looking texture, so would we benefit from having something like this for our RD roads? It's the mix of lime and stone ground up and rollered that you mentioned previously, sets a bit like a loose concrete I would imagine, but not very durable and dusty as hell in the dry months I should think. We have quite a few old tracks like this in the south of England, across chalk downlands, used in the past for moving cattle to markets etc.

These three are some that I have tried in the past - are any or all suitable?

Who knew that playing a game would turn us into road surface nerds ... 

And finally ... ye spake thus:

In the communes according to their importance and their wealth, the roads and streets were either paved, or tarred or covered with macadam.

So there is probably a bit too much emphasis on cobbled/paved streets in villages. Towns, just from looking at period photos, would have main streets and squares that were often cobbled or paved with stone. Others would be tarred (do you mean with just black tarmac or tarred with macadam rolled on, or both?) - we don't really have a basic tarmac in BN. For villages should we have more macadamised roads and plain RC type surfaces? With perhaps just the village square with cobbles? Or would that be most often macadamised as well?

I'm sorry for all these questions but I do think that the balance of road surface is a little off in the game. We have a lot of hard surfaces - cobbles and paving, but perhaps too few of the less durable surfaces. I would personally like at least one more rough surface and could happily have one less paved stone/cobble surface - which gives us a chance to change the balance in game a little.

Thanks

Ooh, and @George MC's maps are da bomb, and what you've done to is also da bomb! Leonardo reimagined by Picasso!

 

[Falaise]

13 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

 

Thanks for your insightful notes M. Falaise. Incredibly useful as ever.

It does still leave a few questions in my mind though ... ye spake:

In 1944 only the RN, national road were tarred
Falaise Caen; Cherbourg Caen.
It was 2 lanes road.
George MC in his "Wittman Demise" is perfectly right to represent it as the RN 158 near Cintheaux

So really we won't see this type of road very often in maps/scenarios, but rather more of the RD, RC type and smaller dirt tracks?

 

 

there is a relatively well developed national road network plus some major departmental road may be tared.
here is a website on the michelin map http://cartesmich.free.fr/ww2.php
on this German map taken from the Michelin maps of the time (sorry I did not find larger) the red roads and some yellow are tared

the official width of the roads at the time is 6m and more for the national (RN) and 5 -6m for the departmental (RD) the secondary departmental or communal roads are 3 to 5 m wide RD or RC

I like the first 2 textures
there is no macadam road in Normandy for a long time
the only examples that I saw, was in the south of Italy and in Cyprus this one was not that much dust and I found them more pleasant to drive than the tarred one filled with potholes.

Concerning the cobblestones, I am only talking about the Norman example. There are only a few stone quarries on site capable of providing hard stone to make cobblestones, they had to be brought in from afar. The large city having a railway had enough means to bring the cobblestones but the farther one goes from the station, the more transport made the cost of the latter unbearable.
for some other regions of France cobbled streets were the rule because it had the raw material on site

[Falaise]

https://remonterletemps.ign.fr/comparer/basic?x=-0.517592&y=49.132866&z=13&layer1=ORTHOIMAGERY.ORTHOPHOTOS.1950-1965&layer2=ORTHOIMAGERY.ORTHOPHOTOS2006-2010&mode=doubleMap

must look at the site "Go back in time"
it also allows you to see the density of hedges and apple orchards.
you can see the 1950 map to identify important roads

file:///C:/Users/pc/Desktop/DC_SCAN50_Historique_1-0.pdf

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by Falaise

[JM Stuff]

32 minutes ago, Falaise said:

https://remonterletemps.ign.fr/comparer/basic?x=-0.517592&y=49.132866&z=13&layer1=ORTHOIMAGERY.ORTHOPHOTOS.1950-1965&layer2=ORTHOIMAGERY.ORTHOPHOTOS2006-2010&mode=doubleMap

must look at the site "Go back in time"
it also allows you to see the density of hedges and apple orchards.
you can see the 1950 map to identify important roads

file:///C:/Users/pc/Desktop/DC_SCAN50_Historique_1-0.pdf

 

Whooaaw I like very much your time machine !!

The farmer, can sometimes talk about property, he has lost, or gained, for decades! 

Edited October 3, 2021 by JM Stuff

[Falaise]

c'est top @JM Stuff!!

it's true that it's great! even if sometimes it makes you sad to see how much it has changed....
comparator test 1950 with 2006-2010
but even 2000-2005 and 2006-2010, you see the carnage on the hedges and apple trees !!!
     Sometimes I have more of the image of Normandy from my childhood in the game than in current reality

I don't know which one to choose !!
texture 1 and 2 from @Lucky_Strike

or

Edited October 3, 2021 by Falaise

[Erwin]

I think there is so little difference that it is not worth worrying about it.

There is a danger of getting sucked into tiny minutia.  The game is meant to be played, not for examining graphics textures with a microscope.  When one plays the game no one will notice any difference.