How are M20 Armored Cars Used?

[Andrew Kulin]

I just finished a CMBS scenario as the Americans and I had about a half-dozen of these small armored cars.  My question is how do you get them to actually fire their machine gun at anything?

The driver does not fire it obviously, and while I loaded passengers into the AC (HQs, ammo teams, half squads, etc.).  Getting anyone to fire the 50 cal. MG was next to impossible.  I tried opening up the vehicle, opening up the passengers, not opening them up, and seemed to get some of them to maybe fire, sometimes (I would estimate 10% or less of the time when I tried to get these things to shoot).  But most of the time, nothing. 

So what am I doing wrong?  These things are pretty much useless otherwise.

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I believe opening up is the key.....TBH these aren't really combat vehicles.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[FlemFire]

Make sure that besides the driver there's +1 bullet magnet soldier inside when you do hit that Open Up button.

[chuckdyke]

The .50 cal is supposed to be to get him out of trouble and not into trouble. It is meant for recon; it is in the category why is my tank reversing? I just plotted fast forward. He has a +2 in leadership and those guys take sometimes initiatives. Not firing because they don't want to die for their countries is one of them. 

[Vergeltungswaffe]

On 1/14/2021 at 8:58 PM, nik mond said:

Sometimes a knife will work in a gunfight if you blindside your opponent. Here's an M20. Every time the tac AI survival would try to reverse it, I hit the cancel order and gave a target order on the Stug. Repeat and rinse. Eventually the Stug stopped. And never moved again. I checked after the battle and only the driver was left and he was in panic. This is from the Battle for Collecchio scenario.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I believe opening up is the key.....TBH these aren't really combat vehicles.

But then again...

[Sgt.Squarehead]

[Andrew Kulin]

I ws given about 6 of these things, 4 in one isolated area that woould need tobe defended by them.And I cannot say now after the scenario is ended, but Ithink it safe to say they all would have had various experience levels and varied leadership modifiers.  And I did load up passemgers to man the gone with mostly no effect (i.e.,never firing).  And when I was targeting things, it was infantry at a 200-300 m distance, or greater.  I just could not figure out what I nneded to do to get them to shoot.

[chuckdyke]

On 1/16/2021 at 8:08 AM, Andrew Kulin said:

I just finished a CMBS scenario as the Americans and I had about a half-dozen of these small armored cars.  My question is how do you get them to actually fire their machine gun at anything?

The driver does not fire it obviously, and while I loaded passengers into the AC (HQs, ammo teams, half squads, etc.).  Getting anyone to fire the 50 cal. MG was next to impossible.  I tried opening up the vehicle, opening up the passengers, not opening them up, and seemed to get some of them to maybe fire, sometimes (I would estimate 10% or less of the time when I tried to get these things to shoot).  But most of the time, nothing. 

So what am I doing wrong?  These things are pretty much useless otherwise.

 

On the GUI there is only a driver and no gunner. It is like asking a passenger on a tank such as in FB or RT to man the gun on a vehicle. If there is no gunner nominated in the GUI the passengers won't shoot. It is not the only thing which is funny in CM. My pet peeve is not to be able to slightly damage building to make an OP on an attic for example. 

[MOS:96B2P]

7 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

 My pet peeve is not to be able to slightly damage building to make an OP on an attic for example. 

A breach team / engineers can make an opening in a sloped roof or any upper floor where you might want a "window".  

To Blast through an exterior wall, above ground level place the Blast waypoint outside on the ground in the desired direction of the Blast. This also works for sloped roof/walls. The graphics will not show blast damage to a sloped roof/wall but you are now able to Target out of it after the Blast.  Or just spot out. 

Edited January 17, 2021 by MOS:96B2P

[Andrew Kulin]

Chuckdyke.  Then if that is the case, I should never have been able to get that gun to fire, but on occasion, my passengers did man the gun and shoot with it (on other vehicles, not the one shown). And in those cases, when the passenger squad was highlighted, the GUI showed one of the passengers armed with a big 50 cal. MG.  So it can be done, but it seems pretty random,like hitting a bunch of keys haphazardly until something works.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Andrew Kulin

[mjkerner]

Andrew, check the soft factors. That can affect the willingness of troops to man the gun.

[Erwin]

2 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

A breach team / engineers can make an opening in a sloped roof or any upper floor where you might want a "window".  

To Blast through an exterior wall, above ground level place the Blast waypoint outside on the ground in the desired direction of the Blast. This also works for sloped roof/walls. The graphics will not show blast damage to a sloped roof/wall but you are now able to Target out of it after the Blast.  Or just spot out. 

Note that the troops will not run thru the demo'd wall as they do when at ground level or if blasting a wall thru to another room at the same level.  

[chuckdyke]

4 hours ago, Andrew Kulin said:

Chuckdyke.  Then if that is the case, I should never have been able to get that gun to fire, but on occasion, my passengers did man the gun and shoot with it (on other vehicles, not the one shown). And in those cases, when the passenger squad was highlighted, the GUI showed one of the passengers armed with a big 50 cal. MG.  So it can be done, but it seems pretty random,like hitting a bunch of keys haphazardly until something works.

 

 

If the GUI doesn't show a gunner, you don't have a gunner. I agree sometimes you get a gunner killed then the GUI shows a nominated gunner again among the passengers. But in this scenario, it doesn't. I wouldn't waste my time on it. If anybody could shoot the gun it is HQ C Company or its XO team. The reason the Brits put the Bren on their vehicles every infantry man could shoot with it. I am only guessing but reading the GUI could avoid getting frustrated. I tried it with a British crew scenario the Cops Battle for Normandy. The M3 Halftrack got a .50 cal. It has only a driver and if I open it up one of the passengers becomes the gunner if I close it the gunner is once again an infantry man. 

Edited January 17, 2021 by chuckdyke

[chuckdyke]

4 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

A breach team / engineers can make an opening in a sloped roof or any upper floor where you might want a "window".  

To Blast through an exterior wall, above ground level place the Blast waypoint outside on the ground in the desired direction of the Blast. This also works for sloped roof/walls. The graphics will not show blast damage to a sloped roof/wall but you are now able to Target out of it after the Blast.  Or just spot out. 

 

To breach with a satchel package something which can be done with a rifle butt? I just think you should be able to go to the attic of a house and modify it. It may be something to be looked at. At least in SF2 you can climb on the roofs, in European houses you can't because the roofs are sloped. Attics in European houses function as a spare bedroom or used for storage. Dutch windmills 5 stories but useless as an OP because the windows facing the wrong way. 

Edited January 17, 2021 by chuckdyke

[nik mond]

Cancel and Open works to keep the 50 manned while you can do it. The driver will try and peel away, and the gunner buttons up as soon as the heat is on, so you have to Cancel then Open.

[Freyberg]

.50 cal is an amazing weapon, but it is a long-range weapon. Stay at least 500m away, preferably further, and your gunner will be very effective - a wonderful weapon against buildings and light armour.

It's a very good indirect-fire weapon. The bullets will go straight through buildings, trees and brick walls.

The only problem is most vehicles don't carry much ammo.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Freyberg

[chuckdyke]

On 1/16/2021 at 8:08 AM, Andrew Kulin said:

I just finished a CMBS scenario as the Americans and I had about a half-dozen of these small armored cars.  My question is how do you get them to actually fire their machine gun at anything?

The driver does not fire it obviously, and while I loaded passengers into the AC (HQs, ammo teams, half squads, etc.).  Getting anyone to fire the 50 cal. MG was next to impossible.  I tried opening up the vehicle, opening up the passengers, not opening them up, and seemed to get some of them to maybe fire, sometimes (I would estimate 10% or less of the time when I tried to get these things to shoot).  But most of the time, nothing. 

So what am I doing wrong?  These things are pretty much useless otherwise.

 

Can you give us the name of the scenario, so I can have a go at it?

[fireship4]

On 1/17/2021 at 5:03 PM, MOS:96B2P said:

A breach team / engineers can make an opening in a sloped roof or any upper floor where you might want a "window".  

To Blast through an exterior wall, above ground level place the Blast waypoint outside on the ground in the desired direction of the Blast. This also works for sloped roof/walls. The graphics will not show blast damage to a sloped roof/wall but you are now able to Target out of it after the Blast.  Or just spot out. 

Good to know.

[SimpleSimon]

On 1/15/2021 at 7:08 PM, Andrew Kulin said:

So what am I doing wrong?  These things are pretty much useless otherwise.

You don't see the use for a vehicle which is impervious to small arms fire and high explosive fragmentation? 

Most reconnaissance during the war was performed by light infantry scouts-many of whom did not even have mounts let alone armored vehicles for the task.  

Edited January 21, 2021 by SimpleSimon

[chuckdyke]

Especially against the AI fast traveling vehicles such as jeeps, scout cars and armored cars tend to trigger responses of concealed MG positions. When you stop to fire at something with your .50 Cal you run a serious risk to be fired at. A scout car's function is to scout to state the obvious. Scouting is also a team effort as part of your security details.  Sprinting two men scout teams, Jeeps, Scouting Vehicles their first line of defense is speed. Your overwatch details spot and find target for your attacking units. The media was attacking Monty for lack of success compared with Patton. Hogwash the nature of the British equipment was to engage the US army that of pursuit in which Patton excelled. To hit anything, you need a sight picture if you suspect a firing position plot area fire to deny being shot at but of all things don't stop. Recon with armored cars travel like blazes on the road till they start shooting at you. Not my words but Patton's explaining the art of reconnaissance.  

[user1000]

You gota know where to use them. I have those and mg jeeps away from towns close by tank killers like M-10s.

Covering troops advancing toward towns, works great if m20s are far away and in cover 50 cal indirect fire would make the enemy piss pants in any builidngs

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by user1000

[Vacillator]

22 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Hogwash the nature of the British equipment was to engage the US army that of pursuit in which Patton excelled.

I'm sorry you lost me on that?  Ah, perhaps some punctuation and a small amount of editing explains it:

My suggestion is 'the nature of the British army was to engage, while that of the US army was pursuit, in which Patton excelled.'  Possibly better, but I'm not sure historically accurate?

I dread to think what @Warts 'n' all would have to say about this .

Edited January 22, 2021 by Vacilllator

[chuckdyke]

Montgomery his method was the set piece attack. Example At 6 am the artillery commences a 'Rolling Barrage', at 6:15 the infantry advances accompanied by Churchill infantry tanks followed by specialist vehicles. Naturally, you can predict Rommel: An immediate and violent counterattack. They were in a friendly country and the intelligence was obtained. Passed on to Patton who made the most of the opportunity. General 'Setpiece' and General Pursuit are the two methods they employed. Montgomery didn't have an iPad in WW2 and the battle plan had to be as such that you can write it down on a notebook so that every squaddie can understand it. Now you have a Squad with 2 or 3 fire teams. One fire team on overwatch and engages targets of opportunity or he passes it on to his Platoon HQ who passes it on to his Company HQ and so on. In the game the US has the best radio network which enables the pursuit. You can direct the right units to counter the enemy units. To engage in a set piece you get away with flares and field telephones. In the game the Germans, British and Russians too, are supplied with radios.  Test in the game an assault with a Commonwealth squad or a US squad. For an Assault I usually select motivated veterans. I may post something how to do this in the game. With trial and error, I got the game engine to do what they should do in real life. The 'Great Swan' was the British pursuit after Cobra it came to its end with XXX Corps on its way to Arnhem. Do they deserve the blame? I don't think so. Operation Cobra the US, Operation Goodwood British Commonwealth. Goodwood gave the US the Intel needed for Cobra. Bradley planned and Patton followed up with the pursuit. 

Edited January 23, 2021 by chuckdyke

[chuckdyke]

4 hours ago, user1000 said:

You gota know where to use them. I have those and mg jeeps away from towns close by tank killers like M-10s.

Covering troops advancing toward towns, works great if m20s are far away and in cover 50 cal indirect fire would make the enemy piss pants in any builidngs

 

Experiment! a great game for this is Huzzar in Battle for Normandy. my .50 Cal Mg Jeep spotted Three Stugs III while on fast speed the AI just reacts too slow. The Jeep was able to make its way to the HQ Sherman for his platoon to take an ambush position. Yes, the Editor had scripted a typical AI attack. The next few turns became a Turkey shoot. Against a human player it would have been different. If you lay an ambush, make sure your units have the contacts obtained by scouting units. That way the AI gives them the first shot. I noticed this repeatedly. Contact Icon, Identified Icon, Kill. No Contact Icon you lose against a unit who has your contact icon. I use scouting vehicles against terrain with no Contact Icons not to find full Icons in places with Contact Icons. It is a good way to lose them. Happy gaming and keep exchanging experiences. Played games are great to experiment especially with tactical defeat or victories. After all the function of wargaming in the military is to produce models which work in real life. Not just to win a game. In our game to win a game against a human player. Fortunately, I have two to play with. 

Edited January 23, 2021 by chuckdyke

[chuckdyke]

4 hours ago, user1000 said:

You gota know where to use them. I have those and mg jeeps away from towns close by tank killers like M-10s.

Covering troops advancing toward towns, works great if m20s are far away and in cover 50 cal indirect fire would make the enemy piss pants in any builidngs

 

Mg Jeeps function to find contacts, the MG .50 cal to recon by fire. Here he found the contacts and enjoyed the popcorn.