My Battle for Normandy stories

[Sgt.Squarehead]

48 minutes ago, Zloba said:

The ASSAULT command was a little bit quicker in comparison, but then they threw grenades AFTER they got into the trenches, towards enemy soldiers which were surrendering and very close in proximity to my other squads. So i found the command weird tbh.

Assault does seems to make units kinda grenade-happy.....I try to use that to my advantage by assaulting into grenade range of units defending an objective, before the objective itself.

Any sort of close assault in CM is pretty much in the lap of the gods once the Big Red Button is pushed, one can just do one's best and hope! 

[chuckdyke]

3 hours ago, Zloba said:

I think i've maintained C2 without much of a problem apart from the one squad, which i intentionally sent another way than rest of the platoon (and the base of fire group obviously). I was having more trouble after i've split the squads to teams and tried to move them up by bounding, or moving whole squads by Bounding Overwatch and Fire & Movement as described by @Bil Hardenberger. The main problem for me was finding the right length of movements mixed with the right length of Pause command. When i thought i had it almost right, after my scouts encountered enemy infantry and let's say they killed them, instead of continuing forward, they stayed in place for the rest of the replay, while the teams which were trailing behind them didn't stop (as they didn't saw the enemy at all) and they were ahead of the scouts by the end of the replay. If it was real-time or the replay lasted only for 30s, i will be able to micromanage that situation and keep the scouts ahead.

And about the squad splitting .. from what i read and experienced, when a whole squad comes under heavy fire, all of it's members becomes pinned. If i split them, only the forward element becomes pinned, while i have one or two available elements which can provide suppresing fire and flanking maneuvers. And i learned that the fire superiority is very important in Combat Mission, while getting pinned down is one of the most bad things that can happen as it practically makes an element non-responsive to my commands.

So that's the only reason i'm trying to split the squads to teams whenever i see the opportunity. It might be a bad thing, i don't know, but so far it gave me only benefits. oh .. one time, when i was assaulting the trenches i used ASSAULT command for one whole squad while splitting the other two to teams and moving them manually. The ASSAULT command was a little bit quicker in comparison, but then they threw grenades AFTER they got into the trenches, towards enemy soldiers which were surrendering and very close in proximity to my other squads. So i found the command weird tbh.

What I found works very well is suppress by one squad, 2nd squad is ready to assault. when you assault you have point A when you can plot direct fire on a position. Plot direct fire now place the assault waypoint 20 meters or less in front of the position and place a cover arc over the position you're about to secure. This will ensure the troops will use their handgrenades. (soldier on the left. These are the killers. Starting Point plot direct area fire bottom picture, top picture objective.   

Edited January 25, 2021 by chuckdyke
spelling

[chuckdyke]

The first picture I posted ended up on the bottom. It is important to suppress your objective first. Try this method of the combination of direct area fire combined with the assault move. At 20 or less meters they will use their hand grenades (important). Reason I play on WeGo you can replay and find out which system works the best. The other important thing is use Veterans +1 leadership +1 morale or higher for an assault. This method worked in all CM games. I let the best squads I have, to do an assault. The squad had no casualties, and it is beautiful to watch like real. 

[Warts 'n' all]

Even with my 400 year old eyes I can tell that this isn't Normandy.

[Zloba]

@chuckdyke Sometimes it's really hard for me to get the idea about what you're trying to tell me. Maybe it's the fact that english is not my native language so i apologise .. i'll get back to it when i'm out of my beers 

2 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Even with my 400 year old eyes I can tell that this isn't Normandy.

[chuckdyke]

4 hours ago, Zloba said:

@chuckdyke Sometimes it's really hard for me to get the idea about what you're trying to tell me. Maybe it's the fact that english is not my native language so i apologise .. i'll get back to it when i'm out of my beers 

The techniques are the same as we use the same game engine. This method works in Battle for Normandy, FB and SF2. It is an assault I have also screenshots of FB. It requires automatic fire and lots of it. Don't try it with bolt action rifles. With British Commonwealth you're at a disadvantage. In RT the Russians have lots of submachine guns and tank support. I keep a log of techniques which work and techniques which sees my troops slaughtered. In World War 2 the US armoured infantry was more suited for assault in regards of equipment. This technique works with them. Assault on a house plot direct area fire, plot the assault movement till inside hand grenade range. Give weapons free on the objective by using a cover arc. Ideally an AFV (Tanks, Halftracks or Armored cars) in support not always available. Replay a game you already played for testing. Assault without direct fire will see your squad decimated. The tactics from WW 2 were from lessons learned in WW 1. Modern techniques find their origin in WW 2. Example Hellcat halftrack and the Bradley. In World War 2 Halftrack and the Hellcat. The Bradley now does the role of both. Fights armor and is also a battle taxi, but it can't breach as well as a tank does. Till the age of 15 I was a non-English speaker I am now 70. Cheers

[chuckdyke]

11 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Assault does seems to make units kinda grenade-happy.....I try to use that to my advantage by assaulting into grenade range of units defending an objective, before the objective itself.

Any sort of close assault in CM is pretty much in the lap of the gods once the Big Red Button is pushed, one can just do one's best and hope! 

Not really, Assault from Point A to B. At point A use the LOS tool to fire at the objective now give the Assault command to point B. It is understood the enemy needs to be suppressed. At Point B give the troops a cover arc or use the pointing tool over the limit of their LOS. To make the "Assault" work they fire at every opportunity. I suggest test it and let your eyes be your judge. When I want the troops to fire I use a fire command. With a LOF or cover arc. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by chuckdyke

[Sgt.Squarehead]

2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

At point A use the LOS tool to fire at the objective now give the Assault command to point B

Nope.....I get another section or squad to do my suppressing, I want the assaulting teams free to fire at anything they see.

A Target Briefly prior to the Assault using the timer can work, but generally I prefer to leave these teams to their own devices.   If I can get 'em within a tile or two of the bad guys in reaonable order, their grenades should do the rest.

2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

I suggest test it and let your eyes be your judge.

  I'd suggest that you have absolutely no idea of just how much testing I do. 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Warts 'n' all]

8 hours ago, Zloba said:

@chuckdyke Sometimes it's really hard for me to get the idea about what you're trying to tell me. Maybe it's the fact that english is not my native language so i apologise .. i'll get back to it when i'm out of my beers 

Don't worry, I'm English and I sometimes have trouble with what he writes as well.

[chuckdyke]

2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Nope.....I get another section or squad to do my suppressing, I want the assaulting teams free to fire at anything they see.

A Target Briefly prior to the Assault using the timer can work, but generally I prefer to leave these teams to their own devices.   If I can get 'em within a tile or two of the bad guys in reaonable order, their grenades should do the rest.

  I'd suggest that you have absolutely no idea of just how much testing I do. 

 

You get done that way. The AI is just to slow I will post something to make it clear. It actually looks like a real assault. You fire during the assault that is the effect. I know I am recent here it's just because I can't edit. 

[chuckdyke]

If you plot a direct fire during the assault move the formation automatically does a bounding overwatch. Start from the bottom.

Edited January 26, 2021 by chuckdyke
spelling

[Warts 'n' all]

"Last man to Le Hotel Carbide has to replant all the trees."

[chuckdyke]

Just now, Warts 'n' all said:

"Last man to Le Hotel Carbide has to replant all the trees."

I played the game some time ago, I disabled the trees for illustration purposes. Did an assault in a hurry. If you disable trees the foundations of fortifications become visible. I tried to construct a proper OP for a listening or standing patrol. (Shellhole covered with foliage). Doesn't work, I wish it could be done during set up. It is just worthwhile to experiment with the assault movement order. The moment the enemy becomes a full contact the troops spotting the enemy will stop to fire the others will keep advancing. Without a fire order it looks like a suicide mission. 

[Zloba]

New day, fresh mind, i'm gonna try to clear it for me. Btw. i love the discussion, thank you guys 

So the point of the discussion is - what's the "better" way of assaulting a position in CMBN. We have 2 (or 3) options:

Option 1 (How i like to do it):
- one element is used as Base of Fire (BoF) suppressing the position (be it a whole squad or a a team)
- another element is used as a Maneuver (MAN) element (again, whole squad or a team)
- i give the BoF TARGET command on the position, which is going to be assaulted
- i get the Maneuver element to a distance of around 30m of the assaulted position and give them TARGET command towards it
- after they throw grenades, i give them MOVE or QUICK command towards the position
- in the same time i redirect BoF TARGET so they don't suppress the MAN, or i give them CLEAR TARGET to cease fire

Option 2 (Recommended by @Sgt.Squarehead:
- one squad = BoF
- another squad = MAN
- TARGET command for BoF to suppress the position
- ASSAULT command for MAN to a position, which is in grenade range of the assaulted position (20-30m?)
- after they throw grenades, ASSAULT command on the assaulted position itself (maybe with CLEAR TARGET for BoF?)

Option 3 (Recommended by @chuckdyke:
- one squad is used to suppress the enemy and the same squad is used to assault the position
- ASSAULT command to position 20m away from the assaulted position
- at the same time TARGET command on the assaulted position = this should make the squad elements which are stationary, provide covering fire for the team, that's moving
- TARGET ARC command from the waypoint 20m away from the assaulted position

@chuckdykeCould you please elaborate more on why you recommend TARGET ARC close to the assaulted position and what you recommed after that? And maybe how long to leave the squad with that TARGET ARC command, before they move?

Edited January 26, 2021 by Zloba

[chuckdyke]

How to make contact? I use the shoulders of the road for a 2 men team. The AI doesn't do it properly you can't predict how they will advance. There should be a movement to contact order. 

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, Zloba said:

New day, fresh mind, i'm gonna try to clear it for me. Btw. i love the discussion, thank you guys 

So the point of the discussion is - what's the "better" way of assaulting a position in CMBN. We have 2 (or 3) options:

Option 1 (How i like to do it):
- one element is used as Base of Fire (BoF) suppressing the position (be it a whole squad or a a team)
- another element is used as a Maneuver (MAN) element (again, whole squad or a team)
- i give the BoF TARGET command on the position, which is going to be assaulted
- i get the Maneuver element to a distance of around 30m of the assaulted position and give them TARGET command towards it
- after they throw grenades, i give them MOVE or QUICK command towards the position
- in the same time i redirect BoF TARGET so they don't suppress the MAN, or i give them CLEAR TARGET to cease fire

Option 2 (Recommended by @Sgt.Squarehead
- one squad = BoF
- another squad = MAN
- TARGET command for BoF to suppress the position
- ASSAULT command for MAN to a position, which is in grenade range of the assaulted position (20-30m?)
- after they throw grenades, ASSAULT command on the assaulted position itself (maybe with CLEAR TARGET for BoF?)

Option 3 (Recommended by @chuckdyke
- one squad is used to suppress the enemy and the same squad is used to assault the position
- ASSAULT command to position 20m away from the assaulted position
- at the same time TARGET command on the assaulted position = this should make the squad elements which are stationary, provide covering fire for the team, that's moving
- TARGET ARC command from the waypoint 20m away from the assaulted position

@chuckdykeCould you please elaborate more on why you recommend TARGET ARC close to the assaulted position and what you recommed after that? And maybe how long to leave the squad with that TARGET ARC command, before they move?

This illustration was just that an illustration. I determine the start point for the assault there I plot a LOF to the Contact Icon. The Line Stops at the place I want my troopers to use their hand grenades. There is where I put the cover arc (I wonder, or it is necessary). The reasoning behind is that a well-trained unit has a drill, and each member of the team knows his role. The cover-arc is the area of their objective, I want them to shoot and kill the enemy. If you have tanks halftracks etc. Use them! A tank ideally should be advancing with the troops. The infantry hopefully takes out the AT guys and the tanks the MG's. The drill RISS Recon, Isolate, Secure, Seize after you seize a follow-up. Do another RISS to keep contact otherwise withdraw. In this scenario they approach a bridge, for bridges they have another drill. Follow up depends what your next objective is. 

[Zloba]

15 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

I determine the start point for the assault there I plot a LOF to the Contact Icon. The Line Stops at the place I want my troopers to use their hand grenades. There is where I put the cover arc (I wonder, or it is necessary).

Is this something different, than what i wrote earlier? Or do i understand this correctly?

52 minutes ago, Zloba said:

Option 3 (Recommended by @chuckdyke:
- one squad is used to suppress the enemy and the same squad is used to assault the position
- ASSAULT command to position 20m away from the assaulted position
- at the same time TARGET command on the assaulted position = this should make the squad elements which are stationary, provide covering fire for the team, that's moving
- TARGET ARC command from the waypoint 20m away from the assaulted position

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Zloba

[chuckdyke]

42 minutes ago, Zloba said:

New day, fresh mind, i'm gonna try to clear it for me. Btw. i love the discussion, thank you guys 

So the point of the discussion is - what's the "better" way of assaulting a position in CMBN. We have 2 (or 3) options:

Option 1 (How i like to do it):
- one element is used as Base of Fire (BoF) suppressing the position (be it a whole squad or a a team)
- another element is used as a Maneuver (MAN) element (again, whole squad or a team)
- i give the BoF TARGET command on the position, which is going to be assaulted
- i get the Maneuver element to a distance of around 30m of the assaulted position and give them TARGET command towards it
- after they throw grenades, i give them MOVE or QUICK command towards the position
- in the same time i redirect BoF TARGET so they don't suppress the MAN, or i give them CLEAR TARGET to cease fire

Option 2 (Recommended by @Sgt.Squarehead
- one squad = BoF
- another squad = MAN
- TARGET command for BoF to suppress the position
- ASSAULT command for MAN to a position, which is in grenade range of the assaulted position (20-30m?)
- after they throw grenades, ASSAULT command on the assaulted position itself (maybe with CLEAR TARGET for BoF?)

Option 3 (Recommended by @chuckdyke
- one squad is used to suppress the enemy and the same squad is used to assault the position
- ASSAULT command to position 20m away from the assaulted position
- at the same time TARGET command on the assaulted position = this should make the squad elements which are stationary, provide covering fire for the team, that's moving
- TARGET ARC command from the waypoint 20m away from the assaulted position

@chuckdykeCould you please elaborate more on why you recommend TARGET ARC close to the assaulted position and what you recommed after that? And maybe how long to leave the squad with that TARGET ARC command, before they move?

Cover arcs. Place a cover arc, now lock on the unit by pressing the Tab-key and set the camera on position 1. Now delete the cover arc and listen. You will hear "Cease Fire!" Without the cover arc they hold their firearms at the ready with the cover arc they hold it at eyelevel. I may very well try to put dots on the i's and crosses through the t's here.   

[Zloba]

That's interesting. Didn't notice that they actually aim down their sights with the TARGET ARC command. Thanks, will definitely try it next time.

I would like to ask about the Recon part. 

56 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

How to make contact? I use the shoulders of the road for a 2 men team. The AI doesn't do it properly you can't predict how they will advance. There should be a movement to contact order. 

What do you mean by that?

What i understood from this, is that you're using a Scout team to advance ahead of other elements. But what i don't understand what you exactly mean by movement to contact order. Do you mean HUNT? If so, do you use restricted TARGET ARC command for them to not give up their position by attacking the revealed enemies, or do you let them fire at will? And do you assault the enemy with the rest of the team without the scouts? Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think the ASSAULT command is available only to a full-sized squad. That means, you would need to get the rest of the team to the scout's position to regroup them into the squad and only after that use the ASSAULT command. Am i right?

[chuckdyke]

9 minutes ago, Zloba said:

Is this something different, than what i wrote earlier? Or do i understand this correctly?

 

A platoon has 3 squads. Squad A security Recon & BOF Squad B Attack or Assault Squad C Reserve. To attack or do an assault is a platoon operation. 

[Zloba]

I get that part. I was asking about the commands you use and if i understand the sequence in which you use them correctly?

- ASSAULT command to position 20m away from the assaulted position
- at the same time TARGET command on the assaulted position = this should make the squad elements which are stationary, provide covering fire for the team, that's moving
- TARGET ARC command from the waypoint 20m away from the assaulted position

[chuckdyke]

3 minutes ago, Zloba said:

That's interesting. Didn't notice that they actually aim down their sights with the TARGET ARC command. Thanks, will definitely try it next time.

I would like to ask about the Recon part. 

What do you mean by that?

What i understood from this, is that you're using a Scout team to advance ahead of other elements. But what i don't understand what you exactly mean by movement to contact order. Do you mean HUNT? If so, do you use restricted TARGET ARC command for them to not give up their position by attacking the revealed enemies, or do you let them fire at will? And do you assault the enemy with the rest of the team without the scouts? Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think the ASSAULT command is available only to a full-sized squad. That means, you would need to get the rest of the team to the scout's position to regroup them into the squad and only after that use the ASSAULT command. Am i right?

I wrote about the functions of a platoon. In a Company you have 3 Platoons, and they operate the same way. The emphasis of Platoon A is security and recon the others are more suitable for attack or assault. The responsibilities overlap each other. The reason armies have drills on the parade ground it is 'Form'. The 2 scouts are the tip of the recon. Their squad, platoon or company is involved. The 2 squaddies were the cause the observer gave his position away. Lucky there were some guys on overwatch. 

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, Zloba said:

I get that part. I was asking about the commands you use and if i understand the sequence in which you use them correctly?

- ASSAULT command to position 20m away from the assaulted position
- at the same time TARGET command on the assaulted position = this should make the squad elements which are stationary, provide covering fire for the team, that's moving
- TARGET ARC command from the waypoint 20m away from the assaulted position

I observed that by plotting an LOF in concert with the line of Assault the AI will do a bounding overwatch (fire and movement) automatically. If you attack a house the line of assault stops at the wall of the house.  You need to experiment always welcome to ask more questions. You can also send a direct message. But I never suggested to do away with a BOF usually a heavy tank can do that role. Play with the combination always get the contact icons first. 

[chuckdyke]

13 minutes ago, Zloba said:

I get that part. I was asking about the commands you use and if i understand the sequence in which you use them correctly?

- ASSAULT command to position 20m away from the assaulted position
- at the same time TARGET command on the assaulted position = this should make the squad elements which are stationary, provide covering fire for the team, that's moving
- TARGET ARC command from the waypoint 20m away from the assaulted position

This time you focus too much on Assault, the assault squad relies on the recon of the security squad of his platoon. The idea is the assault squad gets the contact icons through the C2 and the enemy doesn't get the contact icons of your assault squad. The reserve squad of the platoon can be used for a BOF or an assault or do another recon as a follow up. If you attack an enemy who is situational aware of you, you get done. It takes practice. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

1 hour ago, Zloba said:

- after they throw grenades, ASSAULT command on the assaulted position itself (maybe with CLEAR TARGET for BoF?)

Ideally for me the final entry would be probably made by one or more of the team(s) that had been providing suppressing fire.....The initial assault teams would now cover their advance.

2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

I disabled the trees for illustration purposes. Did an assault in a hurry. If you disable trees the foundations of fortifications become visible.

 I hate doing that.....Nothing kills immersion and realism like sudden acts of god!

Even while testing Heaven & Earth jungle-fighting I tried to keep trees on (purely for immersion) and as I've said before I'm tying to learn how to make maps which actually hide the presence of fortifications.

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead