Recommended game for starting "small" and to gradually progress?

[Lethaface]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

Why is it important?

Two reasons:

* so you have a good indication of what your men can actually spot (if they can't spot their squadmates 40m of to the side they will definitively also not spot an enemy 40m to the side).

* Troops work better when in c2 to their leader and they can also share info horizontally. For the latter they need to see eachother and if there's no radio's they also need to be in viewing/shouting distance of HQ to be in C2.

But I guess you know those already

Edited January 11, 2021 by Lethaface

[Bulletpoint]

15 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

Two reasons:

* so you have a good indication of what your men can actually spot (if they can't spot their squadmates 40m of to the side they will definitively also not spot an enemy 40m to the side).

* Troops work better when in c2 to their leader and they can also share info horizontally. For the latter they need to see eachother and if there's no radio's they also need to be in viewing/shouting distance of HQ to be in C2.

But I guess you know those already

Yes, I knew. But I like to ask open questions to hear others' opinions. And I play on Iron too.

However, the original example given was an isolated platoon and that it's useful to know that they are isolated from the rest of the force. I don't think there's any usefulness in that, as there's no morale or friendly fire effects.

[Lethaface]

Just now, Bulletpoint said:

Yes, I knew. But I like to ask open questions to hear others' opinions. And I play on Iron too.

However, the original example given was an isolated platoon and that it's useful to know that they are isolated from the rest of the force. I don't think there's any usefulness in that, as there's no morale or friendly fire effects.

I think for new players it might not be obvious that a platoon is isolated at all, and thus out of c2 and no sharing of spotting cotnacts. Also, AFAIK there is a morale effect when out of C2. Or better said troops in C2 get a morale bonus and don't break as easily when under heavy fire / taking casualties.

And IIRC friendly fire is possible if the friendly troops haven't noticed the other friendlies at all. Some CMSF scenario about a decade ago featured such a battle. IIRC green troops who weren't in c2 with soldiers from another formation and hadn't spotted them. It was also at night, so they just started to fire at muzzle flashes. However, this might have been changed over the last 10+ years, or I might have been smoking a good one. But I'm quit sure about the memory.

[Bulletpoint]

Just now, Lethaface said:

I think for new players it might not be obvious that a platoon is isolated at all, and thus out of c2 and no sharing of spotting cotnacts. Also, AFAIK there is a morale effect when out of C2. Or better said troops in C2 get a morale bonus and don't break as easily when under heavy fire / taking casualties.

But the point was that this is not about iron mode or not iron mode. C2 is also tracked in Veteran mode etc, and the way to check it is by the red lines between HQ and subordinates, plus the small icons of the eye, green C2 dots etc.

[Bulletpoint]

2 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

And IIRC friendly fire is possible if the friendly troops haven't noticed the other friendlies at all. Some CMSF scenario about a decade ago featured such a battle. IIRC green troops who weren't in c2 with soldiers from another formation and hadn't spotted them. It was also at night, so they just started to fire at muzzle flashes. However, this might have been changed over the last 10+ years, or I might have been smoking a good one.

Well you are Dutch after all

[chuckdyke]

2 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Well you are Dutch after all

 

Smiles, spotting you work with cover arcs which carries risks and need to be done carefully. You avoid friendly fire that way. Pro: You can hide and enemy activity inside the cover arc will unhide your troops. You have fire discipline Cons: You can miss opportunities. Interlocking fire arcs avoids missing opportunities. The first to shoot usually wins the fire fight. Strategies: Ambushes or Assaults. Assaults are done when you have the exact intel. Area fire by the small arms fire of the infantry is a great way to give their position away. CM doesn't allow indirect fire by machine guns. Old but enjoyable instruction movie. Employment of Heavy Machine Guns in the Attack - 1944 - YouTube

[Lethaface]

25 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

But the point was that this is not about iron mode or not iron mode. C2 is also tracked in Veteran mode etc, and the way to check it is by the red lines between HQ and subordinates, plus the small icons of the eye, green C2 dots etc.

True; but in Iron it is more obvious to the untrained eye ;-). Also, horizontal c2 between squads isn't clear/obvious if the unit is in c2 with the HQ.

Anyway I mostly play iron for the situational awareness this gives in a blink when selecting a unit. 

But perhaps @c3k has more input

[Erwin]

You guys who play on Iron...  I like the idea and have tried to play on Iron.  But, it takes a lot of time for the C2 system to percolate info around.  I usually play WEGO Elite.  When I experiment with Iron, one finds that most scenarios have rather short time limits in order to put pressure on the player.  If one has to sit around waiting for appropriate units to get the info before they can target an enemy, it is not possible to complete a scenario.  When I play on Iron I find that I basically play like I am on Elite as one has to target enemies with only vague contact icons or no icons at all, just to finish the scenario by the time deadline.

How do you guys do it?

[Zloba]

5 hours ago, c3k said:

@Zloba, congrats on your new addition to your family! And also on your newborn.

In many games when you select difficulty levels, the game changes the characteristics or the numbers of your enemies. Not so in this game. Instead, the different difficulty levels affect artillery/air response times and, most importantly, how spotting is dealt with (both friendly and enemy).

It may seem counter-intuitive, but I suggest you start on Iron mode. That mode will allow you to see what each unit sees and it will give you a much deeper understanding of what's going on with the game.

For example, in Iron, if 3rd squad is unaware of the enemy LMG section, then when you select 3rd squad, that enemy LMG disappears from the map.

Similarly, if 2nd squad is isolated, when you select it, then your other friendly units all disappear. That shows you that 2nd squad has no knowledge of any friendlies. That's important to you as a leader.

Don't think that Iron is harder: it is not. It is more realistic (support response times) and allows you better knowledge about your units.

Good luck!

Ken

Thanks for the warm welcome!

I read about the Iron difficulty before and i choosed it even for the tutorial campaign, just to get used to it. Thanks for the suggestion!

I see this thread is being busy and i don't want to turn it into something else so i will continue my journey in the game specific section of the forum here - 

 

[danfrodo]

Starting at Iron level -- bravo! you are one bad dude.  I have been playing for years and still use veteran level.

[Lethaface]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

You guys who play on Iron...  I like the idea and have tried to play on Iron.  But, it takes a lot of time for the C2 system to percolate info around.  I usually play WEGO Elite.  When I experiment with Iron, one finds that most scenarios have rather short time limits in order to put pressure on the player.  If one has to sit around waiting for appropriate units to get the info before they can target an enemy, it is not possible to complete a scenario.  When I play on Iron I find that I basically play like I am on Elite as one has to target enemies with only vague contact icons or no icons at all, just to finish the scenario by the time deadline.

How do you guys do it?

Iron sucks in RT play. But in WeGo during the command phase you can see everything even if selected one of your units so it's not really that much of a hassle.

[Zloba]

1 hour ago, danfrodo said:

Starting at Iron level -- bravo! you are one bad dude.  I have been playing for years and still use veteran level.

I don't think i'm a bad dude really  I just like the way the difficulty is done in this game. It's not about cheating AI. I think the hardest part will be artillery timing. And the only difference between Elite and Iron is really just in that you need to see your friendlies, which i find actually more useful in the end.

[Vacillator]

1 hour ago, Lethaface said:

Iron sucks in RT play. But in WeGo during the command phase you can see everything even if selected one of your units so it's not really that much of a hassle.

After a few months on Elite, I'm now on Iron for all WW2 titles.  As others have said here and elsewhere, I don't think it's 'harder' but perhaps a bit more realistic and gves you more info on what each unit can see and communicate with.  This is using WEGO of course, as you said.

[chuckdyke]

20 hours ago, Erwin said:

You guys who play on Iron...  I like the idea and have tried to play on Iron.  But, it takes a lot of time for the C2 system to percolate info around.  I usually play WEGO Elite.  When I experiment with Iron, one finds that most scenarios have rather short time limits in order to put pressure on the player.  If one has to sit around waiting for appropriate units to get the info before they can target an enemy, it is not possible to complete a scenario.  When I play on Iron I find that I basically play like I am on Elite as one has to target enemies with only vague contact icons or no icons at all, just to finish the scenario by the time deadline.

How do you guys do it?

Ambush and raids part of a patrolling program. Recon is done with the leaders in proximity. Here the leading squad is spotting near the objective. Attacking squads are moving into position and get spotted. The 2 guys on the roof give their positions away and pay the price. A platoon has 3 squads or sections. You always have one on overwatch. Pick your accredited marksmen rest assured they will prevail.  

[JoMac]

I only play WWII, and 'Iron Mode' (nothing else matters), and it should take a fair amount of time for C2 Info (thou, I still find it too quick, but I digress)...However, I do find Off-Map Arty, using FO's, takes a much longer time to come down

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, JoMc67 said:

I only play WWII, and 'Iron Mode' (nothing else matters), and it should take a fair amount of time for C2 Info (thou, I still find it too quick, but I digress)...However, I do find Off-Map Arty, using FO's, takes a much longer time to come down

 

Plan artillery attack as follows. For example, your attack is at 15:00 hours you plot a large area zone at 14:45 hours. Depending munitions available 'Medium' on 'Long'. I do 'Long' for the reason I need to adjust when the enemy reveals himself. Adjusting fire takes only a minute or two. Mortars I assign to infantry HQ's. You need to plot a large area against a human player to mask your spotting rounds sometimes even a 2nd artillery unit on light to mask the spotting rounds of the main attack. If you play British Commonwealth the 25 pounder is the Queen that is if you use the game of chess as an analogy. Armor can move inside the 'Danger Close' area at little or no risk. AT teams don't like HE is bursting all around them. Don't wait till you spot the enemy use your artillery to deny the enemy territory. Once you attack they will reveal themselves because they have to.  

[Erwin]

My understanding was that on Iron one needs to discipline oneself to not fire at known targets that the desired firing unit cannot actually see the enemy until the info works its way thru the C2 system.  But, that takes minutes and that seems to mean one has to sit and wait until that happens if one is really playing on Iron.  If one deselects all units one gets to see everything in any case.  And if one fires on what one knows may be there, you are basically just playing Elite.

Waiting around for minutes seems quite realistic re RL.  But, in the CM game, is it not impossible to complete some time-critical scenarios if one is waiting around for C2.

[chuckdyke]

42 minutes ago, Erwin said:

My understanding was that on Iron one needs to discipline oneself to not fire at known targets that the desired firing unit cannot actually see the enemy until the info works its way thru the C2 system.  But, that takes minutes and that seems to mean one has to sit and wait until that happens if one is really playing on Iron.  If one deselects all units one gets to see everything in any case.  And if one fires on what one knows may be there, you are basically just playing Elite.

Waiting around for minutes seems quite realistic re RL.  But, in the CM game, is it not impossible to complete some time-critical scenarios if one is waiting around for C2.

Let the AI do the work, if you aim through your sights you basically have tunnel vision. Set firing zones by cover arcs, let the machine guns do the area fire. I play a WW 2 scenario it is Bridge No 7 (The Lock system near Maas Waal Kanaal (Canal) the Netherlands). You have a Block House but you don't get any contact icons. You know it is the Block House because it is where the MG 42 fire comes from. I suppress by plotting the .30 Brownings at the floors of the Block House. You can suppress whatever is on the first floor and the second floor. The ground floor has no LOS. The guys with the M1 Garands don't fire at all till they actually get contacts. 

[Erwin]

What is puzzling me as I experiment with Iron, is if one is not going to wait for C2 to percolate around the formation and provide actionable contacts, then what is the point of playing on Iron level other than somehow implying that one is playing a more difficult/sophisticated game? 

What you described above is how I play on Elite in the exact same way...  I have yet to see any play experience difference - unless one is willing to spend the time to wait for the C2 system to work and give the desired firing unit(s) a positive contact.  In any case, hardly any scenarios allow for that much time (I wish they did).

[FlemFire]

I think the self-restraint itself isn't even that easy to do for super vague reasons of tactical consideration: my issue with the idea of not firing at an adjacent and un-reported 'spot' is that I may have already been preparing to fire at that spot to begin with. So it almost seems counter-intuitive that if one makes a spot that it would then preclude any preparatory fire just on account of avoiding 'gaming' it. I still think it's just some sort of gamification that one has to roll with as best they can.

Maybe they'll someday implement some nice multiplayer features such as multiple players with each controlling a platoon and seeing ONLY what that platoon sees. Things like that are probably in the sci-fi realm of BF development timeline, but it's nice to dream.

[chuckdyke]

9 hours ago, Erwin said:

What is puzzling me as I experiment with Iron, is if one is not going to wait for C2 to percolate around the formation and provide actionable contacts, then what is the point of playing on Iron level other than somehow implying that one is playing a more difficult/sophisticated game? 

What you described above is how I play on Elite in the exact same way...  I have yet to see any play experience difference - unless one is willing to spend the time to wait for the C2 system to work and give the desired firing unit(s) a positive contact.  In any case, hardly any scenarios allow for that much time (I wish they did).

You don't have to. In the Bridge No 7 Scenario (Normandy) you don't get a contact icon. You can tell where the fire comes from by just go inside the building using Camera position one. You hear a very loud machine gun fire. By plotting suppressive fire with my machine guns, the fire from the block house seems to be suppressed. Iron just mean you need to spot your own troops too. You see briefly who is in visual contact and who is not. Friendly fire becomes a possibility more often. You become very aware that armor doesn't see your infantry let alone the enemy. I don't know or it is a bug with bridge no 7 or not but you must be very close before you get a contact icon. 

[Erwin]

That is just one example and it sounds like an outlier.  My point refers to the majority of scenarios - esp the larger ones.  Am playing a campaign (Die Letzte Hoffnung") on Iron, and finding the only difference is that when no unit is selected I see everything juts like playing on Elite.  If one selects a unit one only sees what that unit sees.  So what...?  Unless I wait until the C2 system tells the unit what it can fire at there is no difference in the play experience.  The missions are not long enuff to wait for the C2 system to work.  So...  one simply alternates between no unit selected and then select the desired unit and use Area Fire on where one knows an enemy (or a contact icon) is located.  

I get the sense that missions/scenarios have to designed to be played on Iron, or it is not practical and rather silly.

[chuckdyke]

On 1/14/2021 at 12:17 AM, Erwin said:

That is just one example and it sounds like an outlier.  My point refers to the majority of scenarios - esp the larger ones.  Am playing a campaign (Die Letzte Hoffnung") on Iron, and finding the only difference is that when no unit is selected I see everything juts like playing on Elite.  If one selects a unit one only sees what that unit sees.  So what...?  Unless I wait until the C2 system tells the unit what it can fire at there is no difference in the play experience.  The missions are not long enuff to wait for the C2 system to work.  So...  one simply alternates between no unit selected and then select the desired unit and use Area Fire on where one knows an enemy (or a contact icon) is located.  

I get the sense that missions/scenarios have to designed to be played on Iron, or it is not practical and rather silly.

 I discovered recently that even two men scout team can split up on iron. You really need to maintain your own C2 network. The contact icons network expansion is a personal thing. It seems to have influence but to provide data takes a lot of work. In Battle of Normandy The Battalion HQ is in proximity of the Panther Company HQ and sure enough he has passed on the Icons. His tanks are on hunt moving with cover arc's and to brew up the Sherman's is child's play. No plotting on my part. The game goes very fluid, I remember earlier games that you target manually using the LOS tool, I lost far more equipment.  

[Erwin]

3 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

even two men scout team can split up on iron.

How do you mean?

[chuckdyke]

9 minutes ago, Erwin said:

How do you mean?

I played FB and send out 2 scouts they got out of contact with their HQ. They wandered something like 50 meters apart from each other. You can lose units on Iron. You see your movement plot, but you don't see your troopers. It happened a few times and I don't think it is a bug. It happens in areas with poor visibility. They are well separated from their icons. I united them again by plotting a movement order towards the trooper closest to their icon. Happy gaming give it a go. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by chuckdyke