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36 minutes ago, RepsolCBR said:

Like finally granting the AI the full bennefit of artillery...

In QBs, I give the AI an observer and otherwise let it control its own barrages - the result is usually the very efficient use of short, accurate surprise barrages on any troop concentration I am careless enough to leave for more than a few minutes.

The AI seems very good at using artillery...

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4 minutes ago, Freyberg said:

The AI seems very good at using artillery...

Varies by game & side to some extent.....In CM:A the Blue AI won't use artillery at all (apart from pre-plotted 'Support Targets').  In CM:SF2 (or RT) the battle may well end before Red artillery or air support ever arrives.  ;)

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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It seems to me that when playing quick battles in Final Blitzkrieg, which is about the timespan October 1944 to January 1945, the German paratroopers are treated as if having been parachute dropped and it's not possible to use them and also pick armoured vehicles for support.

According to what I know there were only two parachute drops during 1944, operation Rösselsprung in Jugoslavia with the objective to capture or kill Tito and operation Stösser in Belgium with the objective to seize certain positions ahead of the advancing panzers in the Ardennes, and no drops in 1945. 

During 1944 and 1945 the German paratroopers fought very much as regular infantry on all the fronts which they also did during 1943.

So it would be great if the German paratroopers could be given some love by BF in engine 5 so it is possible to pick at least one or two different Stugs and maybe even PAK-guns when playing as them in quick battles during the years 1944 and 1945.

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29 minutes ago, Freyberg said:

In QBs, I give the AI an observer and otherwise let it control its own barrages - the result is usually the very efficient use of short, accurate surprise barrages on any troop concentration I am careless enough to leave for more than a few minutes.

The AI seems very good at using artillery...

I second this. I find the enemy is fairly competent at artillery managment BESIDES the pre bombardment. That usually always lands in front of my troops. But I suppose this is just to deter my advance? I play the ww2 titles more than the modern ones, so I can't really comment on those.

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The QB maps made for CMFR will not use the "right in your path" artillery strikes.

The AI will use it for smoke and softening up (if it is on the attack), or generally leave it up to the AI to decide when to use it (on defense)- which it generally does a decent job at.

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55 minutes ago, Freyberg said:

The AI seems very good at using artillery...

Like most of the AIs shortcommings...they are most noticeable when the AI is attacking.

Yes...you can give the AI a number of FOs and TRPs to improve things somewhat but things are still fairly random and unintuetive (from a scenario design standpoint).

Even with spotters and TRPs the AI artillerysupport many times prove to be equally as dangerous to it's own troops as it is to the enemy...the finer aspects of timing is simply not there...

the combination of scripting the movement of the AI groups and the free use of the artillery by the AI is difficult to time and get right with an attacking AI...

After V.4 the designer can help the AI to get these timing correct to some degree using on-map mortars, triggers, the game clock and areafire...but these options are currently limited to on-map mortars...and HE only...

Imagine if we could have simular possibilities with offboard assets...AND SMOKE !  🤓...the AI would be able to fully support its actions with the desired level of HE and SMOKE...with far less risk of fratiside...

Indirect support would be...on time...and on target...coordinated with the movement of the AI troops...atleast to the degree deemed suitable by the designer...opposed to the currently somewhat random...and dangerous situation.

The challangelevel of the AI as an opponent would increase quite alot...

Wich could only be a good thing...😁

Edited by RepsolCBR
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6 hours ago, BornGinger said:

That must mean BF is open for suggestions on what we'd like to see in engine 5. Spill it out, boys and girls, and let them suggestions come freely.

I would most prefer to see dramatic performance increases, AND MULTIPLAYER SUPPORT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, this game without multiplayer support is a joke to the normal person, and this is the reason why I lost interest. Playing alone is only so fun. And organizing games is painstaking. I think a majority of gamers would prefer playing real time than super XCom, turns taking literal days to pass sometimes. Opponents disappearing etc.

This game would have a way better chance of blowing up if it had some kind of real time server-based multiplayer. You're smoking it if you think otherwise. 

Edited by Artkin
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1 hour ago, holoween said:

THX for the reply. Yes i only got my first CM game then.

How extensive are these features? What was in other engine upgrades for example?

That is an excellent question. I see the web pages are not as comprehensive as they once were. I'll see if I can dig something up for them. The 4.0 Upgrade has a Cliff Noted version:

https://www.battlefront.com/cmfi-upgrades/cmfi-upgrade-4/

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35 minutes ago, Artkin said:

I would most prefer to see dramatic performance increases, AND MULTIPLAYER SUPPORT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, this game without multiplayer support is a joke to the normal person, and this is the reason why I lost interest. Playing alone is only so fun. And organizing games is painstaking. I think a majority of gamers would prefer playing real time than super XCom, turns taking literal days to pass sometimes. Opponents disappearing etc.

This game would have a way better chance of blowing up if it had some kind of real time server-based multiplayer. You're smoking it if you think otherwise. 

Also this. I don't really play multiplayer because it's so complicated. Really? I have to use dropbox to coordinate turns?

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50 minutes ago, Artkin said:

I would most prefer to see dramatic performance increases, AND MULTIPLAYER SUPPORT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, this game without multiplayer support is a joke to the normal person, and this is the reason why I lost interest. Playing alone is only so fun. And organizing games is painstaking. I think a majority of gamers would prefer playing real time than super XCom, turns taking literal days to pass sometimes. Opponents disappearing etc.

This game would have a way better chance of blowing up if it had some kind of real time server-based multiplayer. You're smoking it if you think otherwise. 

Totally agree!!

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7 minutes ago, weapon2010 said:

what do you mean by multiplayer support? 

A server browser where you can host or find lobbies to play scenarios or quick battles at least. I imagine it would be a lot of work.

Everyone talks about replayability.. well what do you think it would be like with real mp?

No need for dedicated servers, that's kind of a cherry on top.

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22 minutes ago, Artkin said:

A server browser where you can host or find lobbies to play scenarios or quick battles at least. I imagine it would be a lot of work.

Everyone talks about replayability.. well what do you think it would be like with real mp?

No need for dedicated servers, that's kind of a cherry on top.

A few things to keep in mind for mp

Anything except wego becomes practically impossible to controll past platoon level in real time (ive tried).

 

An ingame automated pbem would certainly be nice to have though i think it would be fairly low priority overall since the majority of players interested in it will find their way to the forum or any of the fan forums to organize games.

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3 hours ago, benpark said:

The AI will use it for smoke and softening up (if it is on the attack)

Yes...but that's limited to the initial barrage at the very beginning of the scenario...isn't it ? What about mid scenario or late scenario ?

Atleast when it comes to standard scenarios the designer is only allowed to specify the turn one bombardment as far as I know.

And even this has some issiues imo...

If the AI force includes several artillery units that is supposed to target multiple location it will do so in a rather random way in my experiene.

That would not neccesarely be such a big deal if it did it in the same way each time atleast...but it does not !

The first time you play the scenario area 1, 2 and 3 out of five will be targeted...for example...the next time you play THE SAME scenario area 2, 4 and 5 might be targeted instead...and the next time area 1, 3 and 4...

There seems to be some kind of random function here with multiple targetzones and multiple firering assets...

This randomness makes scenariodesign a bit more complicated then what it needs to be imo...

Edited by RepsolCBR
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On 1/3/2021 at 11:55 PM, Battlefront.com said:

<<snip>>  Oh, and a particular character, who definitely was not an officer, wearing a well beaten M-43 in a particular movie is yet another exception :)

Steve

 So... I'm guessing this is a reference to "Sergeant Steiner" from "Cross Of Iron"; a classic!

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The AI is competent to pretty good at opportunity artillery fire in reasonably open environments. As RepsolCBR correctly states, from the designer's perspective, currently released artillery tools are very limited, however, especially for any attempts at an attacking AI. You can only choose smoke with an opening barrage, which means the designer only has guaranteed smoke for roughly the first 8-9 minutes of a scenario. After that, the only reliable smoke the designer can call on is using the Withdraw command to trigger smoke carrying units to use it (best done with vehicles). And, arty AI Area fire is limited to on-map mortars, which generally means medium mortars are the only guaranteed form of arty HE the designer has at his disposal after the opening barrage phase.

Arriving at Upgrade 5, it seems to me self-evident that designers should have the ability to plan in what type of round to fire at any point during a scenario. Similarly, all arty assets, both on-map and off-map should be usable as AI Area fire with type of round, duration, and intensity able to be chosen by the designer.

I've no idea what the playtesters have found on the Berlin map, but on the dense urban map I'm working on for CMRT, I've found the AI using arty much less frequently than expected, despite having huge assets. Sometimes, it doesn't use any the whole battle -- which is weird. Perhaps the density of the terrain is causing the AI spotting and decision coding to have a hiccup. Dunno.

The big exception to that is giving the AI TRPs. When I've done that, it's given me some nice wrath of Zeus moments.

Edit:

One way to work things based on the current system might be through enhanced AI Area Fire in combination with 32+ AI Groups. First, add additional options to AI Area Fire that allow the designer to choose round type, intensity level, and building level in the case of direct fire. Then, allow the designer to assign any type of arty asset, including off-map to an AI Group. Then, the designer could set up whatever arty support he wanted and structure it to support other AI Orders. That could work a treat and would be built off current functionality.

Edited by Macisle
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9 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Worst case from a development standpoint, yes.  But as others have illustrated, things like asteroids and alien invasions could change the results.

 

Perhaps time for another interview with Developer Dialogue.  They will be very interested in those possibilities from a developer point of view.

 

Edited by Aragorn2002
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1 hour ago, Macisle said:

but on the dense urban map I'm working on for CMRT, I've found the AI using arty much less frequently than expected, despite having huge assets. Sometimes, it doesn't use any the whole battle

On one of my scenarios where I had given the AI both on-map and off-map artillery it seems that when giving the AI the self control it's officers prefer to call for on-map mortars to shoot. When using the Ctrl + C-key command and paint an area, the AI use both the on-map and off-map artillery for support.

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7 hours ago, Anson Pelmet said:

Totally agree!!

We bought the game to have fun. The only time I played RTS it was by mistake. I honestly can't see how to play RTS on Company Level and above. Like I said we bought to have fun and if you like RTS I wish you well. I am fortunate I have two other people to play Hot-Seat with Turn Based. 

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3 hours ago, Macisle said:

One way to work things based on the current system might be through enhanced AI Area Fire in combination with 32+ AI Groups. First, add additional options to AI Area Fire that allow the designer to choose round type, intensity level, and building level in the case of direct fire. Then, allow the designer to assign any type of arty asset, including off-map to an AI Group. Then, the designer could set up whatever arty support he wanted and structure it to support other AI Orders. That could work a treat and would be built off current functionality.

Yes. Add more AI groups and allow off-map assets to be asigned to AI groups combined with an option for smoke or HE seems to be the simplest way to me to...

A complete remake of how AI artillety works will probably be a task for CM3 but doing ut the way you describe will work just fine...and would add alot...

With the added benefit of getting more AI groups for other use as well... 😁

 

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1 hour ago, BornGinger said:

On one of my scenarios where I had given the AI both on-map and off-map artillery it seems that when giving the AI the self control it's officers prefer to call for on-map mortars to shoot. When using the Ctrl + C-key command and paint an area, the AI use both the on-map and off-map artillery for support.

I haven't tested, but have also noticed what feels like a tendency for AI arty spotters to prefer on-map assets over off-map for opportunity fire. Maybe they go for the lowest response time and that tends to be on-map mortars?

To my knowledge, off-map assets cannot be used with the AI Area Fire feature. Maybe the on-map assets you used appeared to be off-map.

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1 hour ago, BornGinger said:

When using the Ctrl + C-key command and paint an area, the AI use both the on-map and off-map artillery for support.

Did they all target the painted area ? How big was that area ? Did they start to fire at the same time ? Were the off-map assets also mortars or other assets ?

Normally to take part in an areafire order the unit will need to be part of an AI group...wich off-map assets currently can't be.

Did the AI on its own decide to target the same area that had been.painted...at the same time ? That would be an intresting find...

But it would still not allow for the choise of smoke or HE and would not allow for the same degree of controll that the above suggedtion by Macisle.

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