I'm sure we've seen this. I found it fascinating

[Sulman]

I had no idea of the characteristics of the small sunken tracks. Unreal.

[Warts 'n' all]

Interesting, yes. But, "Unreal", no. Anyone with a basic knowledge of Norman history would know about the terrain.

[Vacillator]

24 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Anyone with a basic knowledge of Norman history would know about the terrain.

And yet it supposedly came as a big surprise in 1944?  These days it would be easy to ask @Falaise about his troublesome hedgerows or even Google it, but back in the day it must have been one of those 'well I didn't expect that' moments.  Perhaps they could have researched the terrain a bit better though...

[chuckdyke]

Yes, a mistake in the same category as Hitler's mistake invading Russia without a supply of winter uniforms. See the enemy, see the terrain, and see your troops.  More easily said than done.

[Sulman]

4 hours ago, Vacilllator said:

And yet it supposedly came as a big surprise in 1944?  These days it would be easy to ask @Falaise about his troublesome hedgerows or even Google it, but back in the day it must have been one of those 'well I didn't expect that' moments.  Perhaps they could have researched the terrain a bit better though...

It would have been difficult as I expect they had little local knowledge, just maps (which through modern history prove inadequate in foreign theaters) and aerial photography. Little of this tells you about the actual lay of the land.

I think in the Pacific at least they had indigenous guides. This might have been difficult in France, and how many Free French knew Normandy. Did they even ask? The chap hosting the video mentions it was just as new for the Germans, but their experience and training seemed to be favoured by the terrain.

[Sulman]

4 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Yes, a mistake in the same category as Hitler's mistake invading Russia without a supply of winter uniforms. See the enemy, see the terrain, and see your troops.  More easily said than done.

Just as special forces deployed to Northern Iraq in 1991 had the wrong camo, no cold-weather gear, and inadequate maps. It snowed.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Sulman

[Sulman]

4 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Interesting, yes. But, "Unreal", no. Anyone with a basic knowledge of Norman history would know about the terrain.

I've read a lot about Normandy and knew the basic structure of the bocage hedgerows, but did not fully understand the nature of these covered tracks at all.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

13 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Yes, a mistake in the same category as Hitler's mistake invading Russia without a supply of winter uniforms.

That's a fallacy, they had the uniforms long in advance of the cold weather setting in.....What they didn't have was the means of getting them to the frontline, it was a choice of that or fuel, food & ammo.

[rocketman]

18 hours ago, Sulman said:

It would have been difficult as I expect they had little local knowledge, just maps (which through modern history prove inadequate in foreign theaters) and aerial photography. Little of this tells you about the actual lay of the land.

[snip]

The French Resistance helped the Allies a lot in preparation for D-day. In fact, I have the Neptune Monograph reprint that contains all the info prepared for the Supreme Command. I'll check and see what it says about bocage. But then, theory is one thing, being there in fighting in it is something completely different.

[Wicky]

Wasn't the the immediate early objectives just getting across and gaining a foothold, plus as a bonus Caen (set back in mid 1943) in a day or two.  Later Montgomery claimed he knew and planned accordingly it would take quite a while longer to take Caen over the 3 months necessary to grind down the Germans.

[chuckdyke]

7 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

That's a fallacy, they had the uniforms long in advance of the cold weather setting in.....What they didn't have was the means of getting them to the frontline, it was a choice of that or fuel, food & ammo.

 

Yes, logistics there is not much difference between a Russian winter and a German winter. The Germans were not particularly good with logistics the actual reason they lost the war. Compared with the Russian Siberian troops which were committed in the counterattack around Moscow the German clothing was inadequate.  

[chuckdyke]

3 hours ago, rocketman said:

The French Resistance helped the Allies a lot in preparation for D-day. In fact, I have the Neptune Monograph reprint that contains all the info prepared for the Supreme Command. I'll check and see what it says about bocage. But then, theory is one thing, being there in fighting in it is something completely different.

It takes a few computer games to figure out bocage fighting combined with the benefit of hindsight. Yes, specially adapted Shermans and Stuarts did the trick and fortunately the allies had lots of them. Even now we see Bocage as something of an overgrown hedge it took one thousand years to become part of the landscape.

[Erwin]

13 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

the Neptune Monograph reprint that contains all the info prepared for the Supreme Command.

History is replete with examples of reports being dismissed or ignored cos High Command "knew better".  Think of Op Market Garden where recon showed the two SS divisions near the Brit drop zone - and the info being dismissed as it was unwelcome.

[Commanderski]

Intel is only as good as your ability or willingness to use it.

[Warts 'n' all]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

History is replete with examples of reports being dismissed or ignored cos High Command "knew better".  Think of Op Market Garden where recon showed the two SS divisions near the Brit drop zone - and the info being dismissed as it was unwelcome.

There was no "Brit drop zone", although there was a British one.

[Sulman]

 Outside of this forum I have never observed anyone with the slightest objection to that abbreviation. It's the 2nd time I've seen it at BFC forums. What's the problem?

Edited December 25, 2020 by Sulman

[Vacillator]

1 hour ago, Sulman said:

 Outside of this forum I have never observed anyone with the slightest objection to that abbreviation. It's the 2nd time I've seen it at BFC forums. What's the problem?

Did you perhaps read it in two posts from our good friend @Warts 'n' all? 

I think someone once said of he and Elizabeth "what a nice pair of Brits" but he mis-heard and the resulting fracas only ended when the local constabulary arrived.

[Warts 'n' all]

I've heard it said that the Dead Puritan is a pedantic old codger. He even hurls abuse at the lovely Tony Robinson when he says "Ancient Brits" when talking about iron age Britons on Time Team. I'd ignore everything he says. 

[umlaut]

Nice video. Like  Warts I dont  find it really surprising, but it is great to get a more detailed description of bocage.

This inspired me to do a  bit  of experimenting in the editor to see if  it would be  possible to create the different kinds of sunken roads/paths in the game. Unfortunately, I  think we would need something in between the current options to get it just right. The current options seem to be a bit too much or too little: If you place a footpath between two rows of bocage ("Wide bocage" video),  then I think the "road" becomes a bit too wide. 
But  if you place the two  rows of bocage right next to each other ("narrow bocage" video), it is not possible to create a sunken road/path between them.

I use the great bocage and plant mods of @Lucky_Strike  and @Falaise.
 

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by umlaut

[mjkerner]

Umlaut, what happens if you drop the footpath another level?  My ‘puter fried last week so I can’t check it out myself, but interesting things happen when you use roads and footpaths at different depths when making trenches.

[rocketman]

On 12/24/2020 at 10:53 PM, rocketman said:

The French Resistance helped the Allies a lot in preparation for D-day. In fact, I have the Neptune Monograph reprint that contains all the info prepared for the Supreme Command. I'll check and see what it says about bocage. But then, theory is one thing, being there in fighting in it is something completely different.

I checked the "Neptune monograph - prepared by commander task force 122 on 21 april 1944" which was the last major detailed briefing before D-day. There is a section called "Terrain and Coast" and bocage is mentioned in pretty sweeping formulations like "in 'bocage' country" and so on. There is no detailed description of the characteristics of bocage and how it could affect operations. There are two photographs, one view over fields and one from close by. But neither of them come across as being something different than a regular tall hedge. So from this it seems like the Allies was ill-prepared. Add to that the German advanced tactics for fighting in bocage which, of course, made things even harder than imaginable.

[umlaut]

1 hour ago, mjkerner said:

Umlaut, what happens if you drop the footpath another level?  My ‘puter fried last week so I can’t check it out myself, but interesting things happen when you use roads and footpaths at different depths when making trenches.

The footpath in the wide bocage has been dropped three levels in relation to the bocage.

[mjkerner]

I figured you had tried every configuration, but just in case you didn’t.....

[John1966]

On 12/25/2020 at 2:37 PM, Erwin said:

Think of Op Market Garden where recon showed the two SS divisions near the Brit drop zone - and the info being dismissed as it was unwelcome.

Hasn't Anthony Beevor argued that most of the armour that was spotted in advance really was (sort of) inoperable (it was old tanks used for training) but the Germans just reacted quickly to get armour in once they were aware of the drops?

[John1966]

On the subject of Market Garden, the allies seemed to be oblivious to the fact that the road was surrounded by polder that was completely unsuitable for XXX Corps' tanks. Which is why they had to stick to the road and present easy targets for the German gunners. The Nijmegen-Arnhem stretch was a particular non-starter.

The Dutch underground pointed it out but were largely ignored.

Edited December 28, 2020 by John1966