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Empires / FOG2 & Games set in the Ancient World


markshot

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Friends,

I noticed some topic drift in my CMBS thread.

The ancient world has some really good games.  And I might say I grew up in the shadow of WWII, but Greece and Rome cast some very, very long shadows upon most us.

(I had been a member {investor/staff; not beta} of AGEOD which had produced Alea Acta Est, a great series on the wars of Rome.}

I saw Empires and FOG2 in the CMBS thread, and wanted to comment, but I thought Rome cannot be buried in the Eastern Front.

John, I hope I am not committing  a forum infraction.  CMFI is a long way from competing for market share against the gladius and scutum.

I will be back later.

May you all be safe wherever you are.

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I have quite a bit of Rome.  I think oldest Caesar II running under DOSBOX.

RTW1 has some great overhauls.  Like RS3 and EB1.  They add both to the campaign and the battles.  But despite great modding work.  Diplomacy is hosed in the 3 RTW1 EXE's and its close cousin MTW2 which had EB2.  You cannot share a border and not be at war.

RTW2 has one fantastic overhauls that I think won awards for 5 years straight; DEI.  It adds much to the campaign:  supply, social classes (as this pertains to unit recruiting), ethnicity; improved battle handling.  And many official submods allowing you tailor DEI's difficulty and combat mechanics to your liking.  Unlike the above this is actively being developed and well supported.

AGEOD produced ALEA ACTA EST or more commonly known as AJE versus AGE (which is the game engine).  There are around 5 expansions or stand alones.  Now would be a good time to grab them at Slitherine.  In totality, you will get about 25 scenarios/campaigns at the empire level of war with all having 2 factions to play and some 3 or 4.  It is WEGO like CM with 1 month turns with some going from as short as 60 turns to 300 turns.  This is more historical than most Rome titles.  If you are familiar with AGE, then AJE uses simple supply and simple TOE versus say the US ACW titles.

I purchased Empires and FOG2 as a bundle (25% discount).  First, let me hit FOG2.  I truly thought I was going to hate it.  Why?  I love CM's WEGO and dislike TBS combat with a passion.  But it is the best TBS combat, I have ever seen.

* It does not have to plod along.  You can configure options to make it quite fast to play.  Or you can plod through with tons of calculations and report with each sarissa thrust.

* No matter how much you mod TW combat is always going to disappoint a CM player.  This game is a serious study of the ancient world and combat.  Even playing the fast route outcomes are clearly communicated and why.

* The UI is one of the best I have seen in a game.  I am qualified to say that.  I was a software engineer.

* There is a ton of vendor content and player content.  There is even a player AI (as it is scripted) that IMHO is 50% harder than stock.

Empires.  Developed partially by Phillipe Thibaut the father PDS EU1 (he did the BG and was on the EU1 port team), and wholly developed by Phillipe Malacher.  It is an AGEOD branded, but this is not the AGE engine.  This is a game built upon Slitherine's Archon engine.  The game is graphically appealing, but will not win awards when you compare CA's budget or PDS' budget.  Let's talk about why it is special.

* Much ancient flavor.  So, you have historical constraints, but you can rewrite history.

* There are a few ways to win.  Most importantly THIS IS NOT A MAP PAINTER.  I have won a Rome (epic win) by being the #3 faction in land and military.  You must do some map painting, but over doing could destroy you and you need to do it wisely; like take whole provinces; not just regions.

* Nations age.  Advancing your society gets you closer to victory, but also puts into a harder balancing act.

* So, the late game is a struggle to keep your state from collapse.  It is quite novel.

* The above mechanics subtly impact many years of WEGO turns (1 turn per year).  This is not like TW where there is a single trigger point which turns the world against or a civil war; or EU4 where aggression creates coalitions against.  This is a slowly building friction upon the empire.  The faster your drive the more the friction.

* Battles can be resolved automatically like in TW, but with a lot more considerations which a graphically very visible and very comprehensible.  There is less sophistication than AJE, but it is much, much clearer.

* Finally, if you own FOG2, battle can be exported and fought making it like TW.  However, for me both games are better played separate than together.  Also, the frontage and terrain constraints that are key Empires are easily circumvented in the exported FOG2 battles.  EXPOIT

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Well I hope my run down of the ancient world was interesting.  I don't have PDS' offerings.  I don't think gamers should have to choose between buying a title or paying the mortgage or the rent.

Thank you, Battlefront, for keeping the cost of games real.

Edited by markshot
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I've FOG2 but yet to really break my teeth on it. They're running tournaments and there's a ladder-scene for it so the gameplay definitely has a lot of depth -- and it's very sneaky about it, too. As someone unfamiliar with ancient battles, to me it looks like a basic clash, but in reality there's so much going on under the hood.

 

The TW/Paradox stuff tends to be more binary in nature as they appeal to the mass market. I think on one hand Paradox stuff is stronger than ever, but also they have been leaning way too heavily on 'mana' spending and instant yes/no results. The end result means they can greatly diversify the macro-aspects of their games at the cost of micro decision making. The Empires way of juggling degradation is quite good -- if you like that you should see the Decadence aspect of the Muslim nations in Crusader Kings 2 (as far as I can tell they removed it from CK3?).

 

All that said, the export-import nonsense with FOG2/Empires is some real high-octane Slitherine tomfoolery. There's gotta be a better way to do that sorta thing nowadays.

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FOG2 has tremendous amount of depth with terrain modeling.  Missile modeling.  Skill, armor, experience.  Mobility, flanking.

Skirmishers play a key role.  There are two fantastic YouTube series by Mike Chung and Chris Webber which will get you up to speed on much of the mechanics.

Now the mechanics is very different from CMx2 which is object physics based.  FOG2 is rule based probability (dice rolls).  But realism is not determined by choice of mechanism, but by the function computed.  BTS has chosen their approach and it works fine, but definitely requires more hardware.  FOG2 works with significantly less hardware.  You want maybe 300HP out of your car, do you really care how the engine delivers that; just that it meets your expectations.  So, FOG2 is very deep and hits much of ancient combat.

Make sure to check out RougeJack's AI 3.0.  It will give you a lot more game.  The standard difficult method in FOG2 is not to buff, but just to bump up purchase points for the AI.  It tends to mean you are outnumbered which is a real tough problem in linear combat when flanks don't have hard security such as a body of water or mountain passes.  But you have option of a better AI which means challenge with less purchase points to balance your human skill.  The trade off Jack's AI is that it runs slower as it computes more.  But as it is a TBS game; not such a big deal.

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The whole export thing is that they are two independent games.  It is clear Empires was never designed to be a TW challenger.  It plays smoothest and best pace letting battles getting auto resolved.  You can get detail on the battle from a simple won or lost; or you can see it animated blow by blow.  Your choice.

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This is cool, thanks for the post. I got FoG Empires on the Steam sale a few days ago but I still haven't played it yet. I installed it and poked around the game menus, but I've mostly just been reading about it and looking at videos and tutorials and whatnot. It's hard to decide on where to start! Maybe Macedonia...

I also played RTW including the EB mod for it and all that stuff way back in the day. I never played any of the AGEOD titles like Alea Jacta Est though. For grand strategy stuff I mostly stuck with Paradox stuff like CK2, EU4 and now Imperator: Rome.

I was never really that into ancient history until recently. I had some vague familiarity with it over the years but I never really knew much about it. Lately though, I read a book about ancient Sparta and now I'm reading a book about the death of Alexander and the wars of the Diadochi, and I'm kinda hooked on it now. It's a fascinating and bizarre time period.

Reading about it made me get into FoG2 again, which reminded me that FoG Empires is a thing that exists. In some ways it reminds me of Imperator: Rome. It's about expansion, but not too rapidly or else you collapse. As with most of the other Paradox games, if you expand too rapidly, you become more and more unstable. You even get little citizen and slave pops that you can move around like in I:R. There are some pretty key differences though of course. I like that the terrain and combat width mechanics means that you can't just flood the enemy with overwhelming numbers. Paradox games always seemed like they just came down to raw numbers and manpower. It was always too easy to just flood the enemy with armies without even worrying about terrain or attrition. The progression/regression/aging/decadence mechanic looks interesting too.

It's also interesting that the building selection for each province is randomized. I've seen some people dislike this feature, but I think it works. It seems like it would prevent players from doing some kind of min/max optimal build order for every single province over and over again like RTW. 

I guess I can't say too much about the game though without even having played it.

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The time period is very important to The Wests history.

The concept of democracy and republics come from that period.  (And you can also say that Cicero do a very good job laying down the principles of propaganda.)

The idea of military service based on your stake in the society come from there.  We would all be far safer if the rich went out to fight the wars for their own interests still.

The idea of professional military comes from there.

But it is not just war.

Sewage removal.

The discovery of concrete as a building material.

The discovery of the arch as a construct.

The discovery of vaults derived from arches.

The discovery of the domes again from arches.

It would not be to modern England and the 1800s of iron and steel that load under compression would be the only way to build.  Iron and steel gave us tension and torsion.

Also, many languages find Latin roots.

Legal systems and customs.

Rome and Greece might have began the industrial revolution as opposed to England.  (But I think slave societies lack the motivation to focus on productivity.)

Rome was milling grain by using hydro power and gears to turn grinding stones as was England right before they began to do much more with hydro power before coal and steam.

The Greeks demonstrated the principles of a steam engine, but failed to do anything with it.  That had converted combustion -> heat -> mechanical motion -> rotation ... Watt's steam engine would do that and later turbine engines that generated electricity and drove battle ships.

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In the ancient world, they called it a city if 40,000 lived there.  Rome had a population of 1M with 8 story walk up buildings.  Once again not to almost 2,000 years later and London would you see so many people.

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Very much enjoyed the original RTW for many years.  Don't like the checkerboard look of FOG2 tactical battles.  I suppose both CM and RTW have essentially the same sort of "action squares" but they are disguised so the terrain and action look more realistic and not like a chessboard.

But when I take out RTW these days it does feel dated and I get bored with it quickly.  Given my dislike for the FOG2 tactical combat, which more recent ancients game now gives an improved feel but is similar-ish to the original RTW?

 

 

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RTW2's engine suffers from a lack of mass and space.  So, units often pass through each other like they exist in a quantum world.  I think this is a real problem for the engine.

Of course, FOG2 only one unit in one "action square", but for skirmishers which may pass through the ranks of heavier units.

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Sorry, John.  You move it if you want.

Would it help if we say the Romans invented the sabot round with a kinetic kill dart thrown by a ballista?  Although I doubt if at any range even from the rear a ballista could have killed a tank.  :)

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Do you recommend any books about the ancient world? You seem to know a bit about it. :D

I am reading Ghost on the Throne by James Romm and it has been pretty fascinating. Speaking of the impact that the ancient world has had on us, it makes me wonder what the world would have looked like if Alexander had survived. He planned to turn west after the Indian campaign. He was going to invade Arabia first, mainly to secure the coastal cities so his supply lines from the east would be secure, then he was going to turn west and march across North Africa all the way to Gibraltar. He wanted to take Sicily as well at the very least. Rome was just a weak city at that point being constantly invaded by Gauls and whatnot, and Alexander would have almost certainly crushed Rome in the crib if he had made it that far or considered the emerging Rome to be a threat.

The army was already beginning the Arabian campaign when Alexander died. If he survived, he could have lived another 30-40 years easy. If he lived, Rome might have never been a thing. If Rome was never a thing, Christianity might have never been a thing either, and if no Christianity, perhaps no Islam either. Alexander also wanted to start a massive monumental works program on the scale of the Great Pyramids of Egypt. He wanted to build enormous temples to the Hellenic gods like Zeus and Athena, and he wanted a massive monumental tomb for his father, Philip II. He had insane utopian ideas about uniting all of humanity under himself. He probably wouldn't have been able to achieve half of what he wanted, but had he lived, the world would look indescribably different today. He could have had an empire that lasted centuries or millennia. Instead, one man's bout of sudden illness changed everything and his empire collapsed in a spectacular and apocalyptic fashion.

 

5 hours ago, Erwin said:

Very much enjoyed the original RTW for many years.  Don't like the checkerboard look of FOG2 tactical battles.  I suppose both CM and RTW have essentially the same sort of "action squares" but they are disguised so the terrain and action look more realistic and not like a chessboard.

But when I take out RTW these days it does feel dated and I get bored with it quickly.  Given my dislike for the FOG2 tactical combat, which more recent ancients game now gives an improved feel but is similar-ish to the original RTW?

I'm pretty sure they went with square tiles in FOG2 to make the armies line up more evenly. If they used hexes, things would look weird. Or if they used no clear grid system at all, things would get really messy. Like the TW games or games such as Scourge of War: Gettysburg or Waterloo, where the regiments tend to overlap each other and get mixed together and walk through each other in weird and unrealistic ways. At least in FOG2 units feel like they have a "weight" to them. They feel like big blocks of men that are hard to maneuver, which is good. 

I love FOG2, but if you want something different and more RTW-ish, maybe take a look at the Hegemony series. They are fairly low-budget indie games and they don't look nearly as good graphically as RTW, but I think they are really interesting. I've only played Hegemony: Wars of Ancient Greece but they have a Rome game and one that takes place centuries before Rome or Alexander. They kinda merge together the strategic and tactical maps of RTW, so it's like you are fighting small real-time RTW-style battles directly on top of the strategic map. They focus less on city building and more on the logistics of military campaigns and maintaining supply lines and such. You have to do things like send armies out into remote areas in Greece where there isn't much food, so you have to build up large food stockpiles beforehand and send them along with you on the backs of slaves. Then you have to defeat the enemy field armies and then lay siege to their cities before food runs out, all the while protecting your slaves and making sure that you don't weaken the other side of your empire too much, because the AI is very good at being annoying and harassing you all along your borders and burning your crops and stealing your sheep and whatnot.

They are also very history focused, which I loved. Their Greece game has a campaign that closely follows the rise of Philip II of Macedon and gives you lots of little historical details and objectives as you go along. I thought it was really fun.

I don't really know of many ancients games other than that. There is an obscure one that came out recently called Imperiums: Greek Wars, but it's a turn-based 4X game like Civ. I dunno if it's any good.

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I have been taking classes from

https://www.thegreatcoursesplus.com/home

Prof Andretti of Univ of Green Bay does a fantastic job covering Rome in the Republic and Imperial period.

Others such as Prof. Wressler of West Point does a wonder job looking at the technology of ancient Greek and Rome.  Particularly civil engineering as he teaches engineering at West Point.

There are many courses relevant to Rome and Greece.  A course on Alexander.  I found out he is Greek today and a native son.  But then, he was not very accepted and a Macedonian; although 1/2 Greek on his mother side.  But like the Romans, Greece was seen as "high culture".  The rulers of Macedonia all spoke it.  Alexander recruited Greeks, but key command roles were Macedonians ... he father's loyal commanders and his own boyhood generation.

The are pseudo-mutinied twice.  The second time was in Northern India, but it wasn't India then, but the Punjab region I think.  After 10 years, these men wanted to go home.  After 3 day, Alexander said yes, and began the march.  He was die of a fever possibly from sepsis due to an arrow wound never fully healed.  There were no anti-biotics.

Alexander's campaign resulted in a huge infusion of capitol into the area around the Med.  The Romans would spend lavishly to do projects to compete for "dignitas", but the Persion King of Kings simply stockpiled his wealth.  Alexander reintroduced back into the regions he conquered, and we get the Hellenistic world.

Sorry, I don't have any books for you.

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As per FOG2 it not squares, but octagons.  Diagonal movement and combat is easy.  It is a very flexible system.  Squares are best for easy map construction, but Octagons are very flexible for combat representation.

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The main problem for SOW and TW is that a unit represented on a grid system, but as a point; not an object.  The point in this case is the unit flag.  All mechanics is based on the flag.  Ever notice how in SOW you get a fence bonus even when you only straddle it?  Yes, it does look weird.  The past is just weird.  Like Sherman rounds bouncing off of Tigers (put here in deference to John).

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Do a search on Slitherine for AGEOD and Ancient.  You will find all the AJE offerings.  I think you would like it.  It is not about Empires and building; mainly historical wars.  I think they are very cheap right now as Slitherine has started their sale.  Its WEGO with no obvious grid system.  The world exists as regions.  But there isn't really a higher game level built upon them other than the civilization.  Turns are 1 months with some scenarios going for 300.  There are seasons, supply, and attrition.  Unlike TW there are violent storms and think carefully about naval ops.  There is a fairly decent PDF manual and there have been 5 major patches.  There is only one bug I know of, but not game breaking.  You can PBEM, but I don't know if there is anyone to PBEM with.

You get map overlays.  And a very detailed ledger.  Combat considers a multitude of factors, but it will take time to get used to reading the auto-resolve AARs.  The handling of stack (organization) and movement is very intuitive drag and drop.  It plays fine on WIN10x64; I am using a a Full HD 32" TV.

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2 hours ago, markshot said:

The main problem for SOW and TW is that a unit represented on a grid system, but as a point; not an object.  The point in this case is the unit flag.  All mechanics is based on the flag.  Ever notice how in SOW you get a fence bonus even when you only straddle it?  Yes, it does look weird

Realising that sucked all the fun from the games for me.

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Yes, it could be better with some simple mechanics like if you are being targeted at 45 degrees or more from the defensive structure you lose the bonus.

TW mechanics are really weak and it, but it is okay if you come these games with no concepts.  That's why unmodded the battles take 5 minutes and a few clicks.  Modded 10-20 battles are okay for me, but to build an empire takes hundreds of battles.  Auto resolve is quick, but the cost is often so high.  But clearly it is what the customers want.

We don't see much progression in over 20 years of TW in the battle system other than UI improvements.  Compare that to CM.  CMx1 and CMx2 look about as different two generations can be from the same vendor.

I am okay with SOW and its flag, since for the most part it does capture the sense of black linear powder battle.  (Where as I don't think 5 minute TW battles capture much historical flavor).  SOW gives you smooth performance at low FPS even with 100,000 on the field (mainly because the use of sprites).  I think the compromises are acceptable.

TW battles are mainly about Cinerama graphics.  And they do deliver it, but there is a limit how far you can play without depth.

I also feel animating ancient combat is far harder for ancient battlefields than CM.  I think small arms, main guns, shells, and death are far easier that the many fine details of human movement and close combat.  Further I think TW animations suffer from the Hollywood understanding of ancient combat.  They were not lines that rapidly degrade into 1v1 duels.  No, ancient linear combat was far different involving coordination, discipline,  and mutual attack/defense.  The phalanxes were deadly until the Romans bested them, but a sarrisa and small shield is really pitiful if you are fighting by your lonesome.

So, FOG2 does this well.  The graphics are acceptable for its level of abstraction.

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Bozowans,

I did a check.  About $44 USD for AJE with everything.  Some are scenario packs, and some are standalones.  But they all use the AJE 1.05 engine.  And when properly installed, they will all be accessible for a single EXE.

I going to double check the scenario count I have now on my PC.

Around 25 scenario with 2-3 sides to choose from on average.  There are random factors.  Like play the civil war with Caesar and Pompeus may abandon Italy for Spain or Egypt.

You can tackle it many ways.  Land battles mainly to march into Asia or do it by fleet.

The game configuration has a range of difficulty options.  Most of options here will change how the game plays.  There are decent defaults.  But you can make it harder, by the letting the AI see further or giving it more time to compute turns.

Difficulty #1

Difficulty #2

Edited by markshot
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51 minutes ago, markshot said:

I am okay with SOW and its flag, since for the most part it does capture the sense of black linear powder battle.  (Where as I don't think 5 minute TW battles capture much historical flavor).  SOW gives you smooth performance at low FPS even with 100,000 on the field (mainly because the use of sprites).  I think the compromises are acceptable.

Haha, comparing TW to SOW is indeed ridiculous. My problem is that I have read too much and now I see flaws in everything. I quite liked SOW, clocking hundreds of hours in it and the expansions. But then you learnt about how those regiments were actually made of companies, and how the men in those companies behaved, and you reckon that with the simulation...

https://www.amazon.com/Bloody-Crucible-Courage-Fighting-Experience/dp/0786711477

that's not a comparison that many simulations can stand up to. CMx2 has stood up quite well for the most part.

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I haven't read the book, but I believe the Civil War foreshadowed the power of prepared positions before the maturity of the machines born in WWI.

General Sherman introduced the concept of total war.  It was no longer simply a game of capture the flag.

The telegraph for the first time introduced the possibility of political leadership to participate much more closely in the military aspect of the conflict.

And finally, the railroads not since, the Roman Empire were the importance of lines of communication so well illustrated.

One positive:  Clara Barton introduced the concept of ambulances.

Some soldiers went to the aid station to get a flesh wound bandaged, and in a week they would be dead from sepsis.  No, antibiotics and no hygiene.

For the first time (even old), photos of dead bloated bodies.

But I disagree with those who would tell you a volley of musket fires was the equivalent of the Maxim.  No, it wasn't at all.

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Am not that familiar with the other Ancients titles being mentioned so have no idea what games are represented by all the abbreviations used above.  Glossary plz?

Am assuming SOW is "Scourge of War".  The demo shots look amazing.  However, are those just PR shots or does one get that battlefield experience when playing?   https://store.steampowered.com/app/369390/Scourge_of_War_Waterloo/

 

Edited by Erwin
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RTW1 = Rome Total War 1

RTW2 = Rome Total War 2

MTW2 = Medieval Total War 2 (engine is very close RTW1 and a major Roman overhaul was built with it)

EB = Europa Bababorum 1 & 2 (Rome overhaul mod for RTW1 and MTW2 respectively)

RS3 = Roma Surrectum (Rome overhaul mod for RTW1)

DEI = Divide et Imperum (award winning RTW2 total overhaul mod)

Empires = New release Rome period grand strategy (combat is auto resolved)

FOG2 (Field of Glory 2) = Tactical combat during ancient times (like the CM of legions and phalanxes)

AJE (Alea Acta Est) = WEGO full war simulation of Roman conflicts using AGEOD's AGE engine.

Edited by markshot
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On 12/5/2020 at 10:08 AM, BFCElvis said:

This probably doesn't belong on our forum but if it does it belongs in the General Forum.

Don't blame anyone that visits these forums. Why is general all the way at the very bottom? Even below TacOps? Nobody even knows this exists. Blame your forum design not the people posting here bro. Lmao.

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1 hour ago, Artkin said:

Don't blame anyone that visits these forums. Why is general all the way at the very bottom? Even below TacOps? Nobody even knows this exists. Blame your forum design not the people posting here bro. Lmao.

I can dig it. I'm going to see if there is something in the back end that allows me to move this forum above the titles that we no longer offer. 

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