Macintosh M1?

[amidali]

Hello!

Has anybody tried Combat Mission on a Macintosh M1?

[AlexUK]

Would be super interested in this. 

[Ultradave]

Not yet, however I HAVE tried it on Big Sur after updating my MacBook Pro. Everything works fine with two exceptions. (which are actually the same problem).

1. When you start a scenario, there is normally a splash screen of a vehicle with a progress bar as the scenario loads. That screen is black with no progress bar. The scenario does load after you stare at the black screen for a while, and takes you normally to the briefing screen.

2. During the game, after making your moves in WeGo, you press the red button and get a progress bar as the game processes the turn. That bar is also missing, but it does work. The problem with this one is you don't get visual indication that the replay is starting until you notice the clock start counting.

I've reported this in the beta forum so it will get looked at.

As far as the M1 chip, while I haven't tried it, I did used to play CM1 on my Mac using Rosetta after the PowerPC chips were changed to Intel and it worked just fine, until Apple eliminated Rosetta support (which I think was a couple years). After that it was CM drought until CM2 was issued. So I'm guessing it will work ok in Rosetta2 and M1 chips. There is too much software and too many people who won't be immediately buying new Macs for it not to. My MacBook Pro is only about 18 months old and works great, so I doubt I'll be buying a new one right away.

Dave

[Schrullenhaft]

Are you sure about CM1 and Rosetta on an Intel CPU Mac ? By the time Apple went with Intel CPUs they were already on OS X and I don't think any of the CM1 games (CMBO, CMBB and CMAK) worked on OS X.

My impression of what MAY happen is that CM2 games will NOT work with the M1-based Macs. Rosetta2 will be available (allowing Intel-based code to be run in emulation on the ARM-based M1 CPU), but I'm not sure of the support for OpenGL on that platform. While OpenGL may see a bit more life with the Intel-based Macs, it would likely require some code on the M1 and I don't know if Apple intends to do that OR if Rosetta2 will simply support OpenGL. Rosetta is mainly there for running the Intel code on an ARM-based CPU. I don't know if it will do API conversion from OpenGL to Apple's Metal API (I doubt it, but it is mildly possible). With CPU emulation there will be a noticeable drop in performance if the CM games do run.

[Lucky_Strike]

21 minutes ago, Schrullenhaft said:

With CPU emulation there will be a noticeable drop in performance if the CM games do run.

Of interest - despite what the game requirements say I have successfully run CMx2 games under Windows emulation on Intel based Macs using both Wine and VMware Fusion. Generally the games have worked without much issue and are playable though not sure how well they fare with really large scenarios. From memory I think they were lacking some of the mist effects. So if the emulation software makers continue to support Macs on M1 silicon (why wouldn't they), with OpenGL as part of the emulation, there's no reason we can't run CM under emulation, though YMMV of course. 

[Schrullenhaft]

Surprising that the CMx2 games would activate in a virtualized environment. Supposedly the copy-protection system would detect that it is running in a virtualized environment and prevent execution. With Wine I don't think you're running fully virtualized (not to the extent that the copy-protection system would notice), but I don't know the copy-protection system's compatibility with the Wine environment. With VMWare Fusion I would have thought that it would be a specific instance where the copy-protection system would trip up and detect it was running in a virtual environment.

For the M1-based Macs the VM OSes will need to be coded to natively support the ARM-based CPU, since what I've read suggests that Rosetta2 will not support Intel-based VM code/modes. So you'll need to wait for those M1-based versions to come out and then you'll need to have a VM with an install of a Windows OS to run the Windows version of the games (which I assume will be accessible with Battlefront's licensing, regardless of which original version you purchased - though there might be license key/activation issues). So this means that the M1 native VM software will need a Rosetta2-like emulation layer to interpret Intel code for ARM. This is likely to be a necessary feature for the majority of VM vendors since most VMs are not going to be running native ARM code.

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Schrullenhaft

[Lucky_Strike]

6 minutes ago, Schrullenhaft said:

Surprising that the CMx2 games would activate in a virtualized environment. Supposedly the copy-protection system would detect that it is running in a virtualized environment and prevent execution. With Wine I don't think you're running fully virtualized (not to the extent that the copy-protection system would notice), but I don't know the copy-protection system's compatibility with the Wine environment. With VMWare Fusion I would have thought that it would be a specific instance where the copy-protection system would trip up and detect it was running in a virtual environment.

Can't say why the copy-protection wasn't triggered, it may be that in VMware Fusion I was using a virtual environment cloned from a real PC or, most likely, the Bootcamp environment, or even the demo versions of games. I know that I had problems with one of the demos refusing to run on my Mac so that is maybe why I ran it under emulation. The one on Wine is certainly a fully licensed install of BN - I still have it on my Mac, though I think Wine was a trial, or something, when I last ran it so probably won't run now. Incidentally I've also run the CMx1 games under emulation, again no big issues that I can remember.

12 minutes ago, Schrullenhaft said:

For the M1-based Macs the VM OSes will need to be coded to natively support the ARM-based CPU, since what I've read suggests that Rosetta2 will not support Intel-based VM code/modes. So you'll need to wait for those M1-based versions to come out and then you'll need to have a VM with an install of a Windows OS to run the Windows version of the games (which I assume will be accessible with Battlefront's licensing, regardless of which original version you purchased - though there might be license key/activation issues).

I fully expect that VMware will make an M1 compliant version of Fusion, how well the graphics will function with the built-in M1 graphics will have to be seen. When I've run them under emulation they have always been using a discrete GPU rather than on-CPU graphics. Wether Wine will update to M1 is anyones guess.

I'm happy with my Intel Mac for now. I also have a gaming PC because quite frankly I've never really trusted that Apple support would always be possible in CM and the graphics-side of Macs has always been a bit of an issue for me.

What I'm very interested in is the possibility of running CM on one of the new cloud PC streaming services that are springing up - like Shadow. These will cut down massively on the cost of PC ownership for someone like me who just uses it for gaming - and only for CM games at that!

[Bufo]

The demos run under proton (basically steams fork of wine), but not the full games unfortunately, including the steam version of SF2.

[Lucky_Strike]

10 hours ago, Bufo said:

The demos run under proton (basically steams fork of wine), but not the full games unfortunately, including the steam version of SF2.

That’s probably down to the copy protection that Schrullenhaft mentioned. Unfortunately can’t do a demo of Shadow to see if that’ll run them - should work as it’s basically a PC in the Cloud rather than emulation. Might try it just for a month to see if it’s any good.

[Bufo]

15 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

That’s probably down to the copy protection that Schrullenhaft mentioned. Unfortunately can’t do a demo of Shadow to see if that’ll run them - should work as it’s basically a PC in the Cloud rather than emulation. Might try it just for a month to see if it’s any good.

The steam version should work as it uses steams copy protection system, but it doesn't. So in itself this is not an explanation.

 

Edit: I am not sure the steam version is actually using only the steam copy protection.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Bufo

[Ultradave]

On 11/17/2020 at 2:18 PM, Schrullenhaft said:

Surprising that the CMx2 games would activate in a virtualized environment. Supposedly the copy-protection system would detect that it is running in a virtualized environment and prevent execution. With Wine I don't think you're running fully virtualized (not to the extent that the copy-protection system would notice), but I don't know the copy-protection system's compatibility with the Wine environment. With VMWare Fusion I would have thought that it would be a specific instance where the copy-protection system would trip up and detect it was running in a virtual environment.

For the M1-based Macs the VM OSes will need to be coded to natively support the ARM-based CPU, since what I've read suggests that Rosetta2 will not support Intel-based VM code/modes. So you'll need to wait for those M1-based versions to come out and then you'll need to have a VM with an install of a Windows OS to run the Windows version of the games (which I assume will be accessible with Battlefront's licensing, regardless of which original version you purchased - though there might be license key/activation issues). So this means that the M1 native VM software will need a Rosetta2-like emulation layer to interpret Intel code for ARM. This is likely to be a necessary feature for the majority of VM vendors since most VMs are not going to be running native ARM code.

 

Interesting. It works for me using Parallels Desktop and W10. I loaded Black Sea there because it refuses start on OS X, for about 3 OS X versions now. Can't figure it out and finally gave up and loaded it in Parallels, where it works just fine. I did have to license it but I assume that process worked exactly like on the Mac. I assume it worked because I'm not running a Mac version and a Windows version simultaneously?

As far as your question about OpenGL, that's the wild card. I have not seen anything on any Apple published info about M1 and Rosetta2 that say anything about it.

Dave

[Carl Puppchen]

Has anyone tried it yet with an M1 mac?  Like as a regular app, as it works today?  I am not an expert on emulation.  I was just about to buy an M1 mac so maybe I am going to be the beta tester...

 

[AlexUK]

13 hours ago, Carl Puppchen said:

Has anyone tried it yet with an M1 mac?  Like as a regular app, as it works today?  I am not an expert on emulation.  I was just about to buy an M1 mac so maybe I am going to be the beta tester...

 

Would be very good to know.

[AlexUK]

Any Mac M1 tests yet? Would be good to know.

[AlexUK]

OK, I now have a base model M1. Mac book Air. Should have access to Internet on Sunday. 

A couple of questions. 

 

1) My old Mac is currently in another country with all CM versions installed on it. Can I also (attempt to) reinstall on the M1 or do I need to delete them from my old mac first? The old mac is almost always crashing on startup so may be tricky to do that. 

2) shall I try steam version of CMSF2 (will need to get keys) or the version available from Battlefront directly? 

[Lucky_Strike]

1 hour ago, AlexUK said:

OK, I now have a base model M1. Mac book Air. Should have access to Internet on Sunday. 

A couple of questions. 

 

1) My old Mac is currently in another country with all CM versions installed on it. Can I also (attempt to) reinstall on the M1 or do I need to delete them from my old mac first? The old mac is almost always crashing on startup so may be tricky to do that. 

2) shall I try steam version of CMSF2 (will need to get keys) or the version available from Battlefront directly? 

Oooh exciting ...

1. You should be able to do a second install - IIRC one can have up to four activations. I have the game activated on both Mac and PC at the same time, whilst in the past I had up to three activations running at once. If you’ve run out of activations then you can usually contact support who will somehow magically grant more, assuming the older installations are no longer active (eg linked to Mac/PC you no longer own or use for game).

2. I would go BF version first, see if the actual game installer works as that will also need to run under the Rosetta 2 emulation. If that doesn’t work then try Steam - does the Steam version run on Mac? (I know nothing about Steam BTW).

If you get it working we want lots of stats and videos testing everything please 

[AlexUK]

OK, downloaded CMSF 2 demo and scenario opens and clicked go, turn appeared to run normally..... 

Very, very happy. 

Will not have time for more testing for time being, plus I am struggling to get into Battlefront store to download full games (2 accounts, forgotten passwords). 

[Lucky_Strike]

2 hours ago, AlexUK said:

OK, downloaded CMSF 2 demo and scenario opens and clicked go, turn appeared to run normally..... 

Very, very happy. 

Will not have time for more testing for time being, plus I am struggling to get into Battlefront store to download full games (2 accounts, forgotten passwords). 

Sounds very promising, thanks for the update. Not sure how one can measure FPS on a Mac, but if game play is smooth that should be good enough. Will be interested to see whether atmospheric effects - rain, fog, snow - work.

[AlexUK]

Downloaded CMSF 2

 

Changed default settings to improved for model quality and texture quality

1440x900

Vsync off

Tree detail high 

Shader on. 

 

Picadilly Circus scenario

 

Slight stutter when scrolling around but playable. 

[AlexUK]

Also noticed jaggy shadows. 

I'm CMBN, same settings, BP1 scenario Celer and Audax, rain effects seem OK. 

 

Scrolling around seems OK. 

 

Missions load quickly (no loading screen showing on either game). 

 

CMBN façade troop, jagged shadows very visible at certain angles. 

 

[AlexUK]

CMFB Road to wiltz, snow effects seem OK. Scrolling seems smoother than CMSF 2 Picadilly Circus scenario. 

Compared to 10 year old 15" MacbookPro with graphics card, noticeable improvement. - get wind effect in trees and more detailed trees, sound effects don't seem to cut out when too much happening at once. 

I wouldn't say a massive change, but definitely noticeable. And obviously very relieved that it works. 

Let me know if any other questions. 

[AlexUK]

Oh, and all of this was while on battery, just realised. 

[Lucky_Strike]

1 hour ago, AlexUK said:

Oh, and all of this was while on battery, just realised. 

Thanks for all this and for taking a punt!

Do the M1s have a performance mode when running of mains?

What is fog/mist effect like?

[AlexUK]

Super chuffed I can at last be of use to someone. Normally it is me asking the questions

I'm not sure about performance mode. I'll try it out when I find the plug (oops) - battery life is incredible on this thing by the way. 

For fog, is there a particular scenario you have in mind? What am I looking for, slowdowns in performance and/or graphical glitches, and if so, which ones might they be? 

[Schrullenhaft]

This is very good news. I had seriously expected OpenGL support to be borked within Rosetta 2. I also didn't expect an ARM-based CPU to do well either compared to an Intel CISC CPU. Hopefully Apple keeps at least this level of support for OpenGL as it rolls out other M1-based (and later CPU iterations) Macs.