John1966 Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 (edited) We've all been there. Last night's was particularly annoying. The 5-man para team with the PIAT lying in the long grass next to the road. The Stug drives up right in front of them little more than 20 foot away presenting a side shot. It's screwed. Except the guys with the PIAT haven't spotted it. In fact, they continue to not spot it for a minute. How long it would have taken to spot it we will never know because halfway through that minute the Stug starts to slowly turn, leisurely lining up a shot, before blowing the team to kingdom come. Their last words were, "What tank?" Now, I know there's little point moaning about one-off incidents but I'm sure we've seen this lots of times (something similar happened in my previous game). How do five guys fail to spot 24 metric tons of noisily slow moving steel right in front of them? It had even fired. They would have seen it, they would have heard it, and, at that distance, they'd have even smelled it. The fact that the buttoned up tank pointing the wrong way with multiple targets spotted the guys in the long grass just adds insult to injury. In isolation, I'd accept that. Perhaps they were a crack crew. Perhaps Wittmann himself decided to take a Stug on a jolly that day. But not when his tank is apparently invisible to nearby enemy infantry. I have no idea what goes on "under the hood" in terms of spotting round calculations, but would it not be reasonable to suggest that tanks should automatically be spotted by non-cowering infantry with a clear LOS if the tank is under a certain distance away? Would it break the game? Surely infantry's biggest advantage over AFVs is the fact that they're harder to spot than the AFV? If the AFV is on a distant hill, fine. Easily missed. Behind a building, fine. Intervening foliage? Fine. But in the open and a short distance away, it should be spotted every time. Edited November 15, 2020 by John1966 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 Chit, John...Sorry about that :-)...Oh, and I agree you should've seen my Stug. Did you give your Fire team a HIde Order, or Covered-Arcs Order facing the wrong way ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1966 Posted November 15, 2020 Author Share Posted November 15, 2020 1 hour ago, JoMc67 said: Did you give your Fire team a HIde Order, or Covered-Arcs Order facing the wrong way ? Not hidden, no covered arc and facing the right way. TBH they were just covering the road for anything as that's where the bad guys were coming from, rather than a carefully prepared tank ambush so I didn't feel the need for all that (and hide gets you into all sorts of bother if you're not careful). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtsjc1 Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 Agree on all points. Also the fact that they were armed with a PIAT would lead you to believe they'd have orders to engage any armor that got within range. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 LOS and spotting in CM2 can be very weird at times. Was playing CMSF2 and a;tho' my units could easily see infantry, they could not see the BMP that was directly on top of the infantry. One learns to work around stuff like that - one has to learn to understand the weirdness and play vs the game system itself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1966 Posted November 16, 2020 Author Share Posted November 16, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, jtsjc1 said: Also the fact that they were armed with a PIAT would lead you to believe they'd have orders to engage any armor that got within range. Well they probably would if they had spotted it... Never give the PIAT to the short -sighted guy. Edited November 16, 2020 by John1966 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 It's a command failure kind of thing. Obviously, your men were afraid of the StuG and what it could do to them if it saw them. Quiet as a mouse... You need to make your men fear YOU more then they do the enemy. I will occasionally order a machinegun nest be charged, just so they understand what's what. (Kidding aside...yeah, we've all been there and it's frustrating as all get out.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornGinger Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 We hope for a new and better game engine. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1966 Posted November 16, 2020 Author Share Posted November 16, 2020 1 hour ago, BornGinger said: We hope for a new and better game engine. True but if you just wanted tanks to be automatically spotted by non-cowering infantry with a clear LOS if the tank is under a certain distance away, you could just do it in a patch. (He says as if he has a clue what he's talking about ) I like the current engine. Keep adding material. If they do a new one will be back in the bocage (and with all the bugs a new engine brings). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 47 minutes ago, John1966 said: if you just wanted tanks to be automatically spotted by non-cowering infantry with a clear LOS if the tank is under a certain distance away, you could just do it in a patch. It's been 13 years since CM2 came out so it's probable that all the strange behaviors we see in the game are not easily (or at all) fixable with current engine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1966 Posted November 16, 2020 Author Share Posted November 16, 2020 3 minutes ago, Erwin said: It's been 13 years since CM2 came out so it's probable that all the strange behaviors we see in the game are not easily (or at all) fixable with current engine. Can't be any harder than having different spotting rules for different skill levels. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 What was the weather and time of day? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freyberg Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 I have seen things like this happen, but not very often. Most of the time it does happen is because I've done 'Hide Smoke' and forgotten about it, or there are shrubs in the way, but 'Trunks Only' makes them nearly invisible. Which is not to say it never happens... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1966 Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Vanir Ausf B said: What was the weather and time of day? No idea but it was daytime and it wasn't raining or foggy. But I'm not sure what difference even adverse conditions would make because the Stug (a buttoned up Stug that was pointing the wrong way) managed to them (lying down in the long grass) easy enough. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1966 Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Freyberg said: Most of the time it does happen is because I've done 'Hide Smoke' and forgotten about it, or there are shrubs in the way, but 'Trunks Only' makes them nearly invisible. Definitely no smoke involved. Think I probably had trunks only for the trees but there weren't any trees in that spot and, most pertinently of all, the Stug managed to see them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, John1966 said: But I'm not sure what difference even adverse conditions would make because the Stug (a buttoned up Stug that was pointing the wrong way) managed to them (lying down in the long grass) easy enough. I've seen the same happening several times. Infantry crawling through forest to catch a tank from the behind.. only to find that when they finally spot the tank (a few metres in front of them), it has already spotted them, turned the turret to face them, ready to fire. Tanks seem to spot infantry better at extreme close range than vice versa. I think it only really affects tanks with a cupola though. There might be something about the spotting algorithm for that cupola that causes it. Just a wild guess. Edited November 17, 2020 by Bulletpoint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1966 Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said: I think it only really affects tanks with a cupola though. Well this was a Stug so no cupola. But I'm glad someone else has seen it multiple times. I don't think it's even what I'd call "rare". Might go as far as "uncommon" but that's as far as I'm prepared to go... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, John1966 said: Well this was a Stug so no cupola. But I'm glad someone else has seen it multiple times. I don't think it's even what I'd call "rare". Might go as far as "uncommon" but that's as far as I'm prepared to go... Some StuGs do have cupolas though. And no I don't think it's rare at all. Edited November 17, 2020 by Bulletpoint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falaise Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 I only really noticed it clearly on CM italy and Red thunder and relatively little on CM Normandy I notice that this involves a PIAT team that reminds me of another recent post a more sensitive problem with its specific teams? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 It's been noted many times b4 that CM2 tanks seem to have a telepathic ability to spot inf even in poor visual conditions. One often experiences the opposite problem with inf which are just a few meters away from a tank unable to see it despite that fact it is a noisy beast. Inf may also not detect a tank on the other side of a wall . Noise does not seem to be a factor in CM2 spotting (at least not vehicles). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 This may have nothin' to do with nothin'. I recall years (decades) ago being out in the open Arizona countryside looking for native American artifacts. Busy with my head down minding my own business, I heart a *snort* close by. Look around I noticed there was a huge bull the size of an SUV standing in the same field and I had never noticed! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornGinger Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 3 hours ago, Bulletpoint said: I've seen the same happening several times. Infantry crawling through forest to catch a tank from the behind.. only to find that when they finally spot the tank (a few metres in front of them), it has already spotted them It sometimes seems that infantry in crawling aren't really aware of their surroundings but look down to make sure they don't dirt their clothes on animal droppings or search for mushrooms. One often has to stop their crawling so they sit up to make them see the enemy vehicles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1966 Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 32 minutes ago, MikeyD said: Look around I noticed there was a huge bull the size of an SUV standing in the same field and I had never noticed! Were you carrying a PIAT? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1966 Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 59 minutes ago, Erwin said: Noise does not seem to be a factor in CM2 spotting (at least not vehicles). I thought it was. I know CMx1 had those weird sound contact generic tanks that used to move around in the wrong place that were sound contacts, but in CMx2 you often get vehicle contacts (that move) that are out of anyone's LOS. I assumed that was because you could hear them. I also remember seeing dust kicking up behind trees etc. in CMx1 which was quite cool (and there was no contact icon). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1966 Posted November 18, 2020 Author Share Posted November 18, 2020 2 hours ago, John1966 said: I also remember seeing dust kicking up behind trees etc. in CMx1 which was quite cool (and there was no contact icon). Perhaps that's still in CMx2 but all the CMBN scenarios are too wet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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