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Infantry in buildings just won't die.. (and now they won't run away either..)


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12 hours ago, MikeyD said:

As an aside, I read recently that Javelin missiles go for about $100,000-ish these days and the control unit is $150,000. So every time you use a Javelin to take out one teenager with an AK hiding in a building its like firing a Mercedes Benz S class downrange

Your tax dollars at work.

https://www.usdebtclock.org/

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On 11/8/2020 at 11:21 AM, SDG said:

I have noticed that since the latest patch (?) infantry can survive small arms fire in buildings for a ridiculous amount of time.

My first weird experience was in Shock Force 2, when a tiny Syrian section kept on living for 9 (!) turns against the hailstorm of fire from 20 of my guys (veteran/crack, distance about 175 m) and the only thing that was doing damage to them and eventually cut them down one by one was the weapon mounted grenade launchers.

They popped up, received fire, got pinned, recovered, popped up, got fired upon - rince and repeat.

So, is it me or this really an issue now?

Okay.

Heavy modular buildings have always been very strong defensively. What you've experienced is two very select instances that are no doubt very frustrating, but aren't indicative of the average.

In SF2 your infantry are armed with guns that shoot tiny little bullets, that will not really penetrate buildings at any distance aside from point blank range. You need to rely on your 40mm and .50cal to get any real results. I make it an SOP for my Strykers to follow my infantry at a distance of about 3-400 meters and use their 40mm and 50cal to engage enemy in buildings. When the enemy is flushed into the open, they then become easy meat for my infantry.

A good example can be seen in this video:

I can't speak to the Fortress Italy example because I've only played a few scenarios, and am not yet completely familiar with the Italian TO&E.

One thing you might want to keep in mind is to use an Area Target order to deliberately f_ck up the building to convince the enemy to exit, or at least keep them pinned so you can close assault them.

Like this:

Then again, you might just have run into someone with the 'Fanatic' trait, which while extremely rare, does occasionally happen.

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On 12/7/2020 at 6:44 PM, bf5213 said:

I have took a few pictures of the building and its location with infantry inside.

p7wlTfz.jpg

Anyone care to suggest how this situation can be dealt with effectively because I certainly wasn't able to do so without losing a lot of man power? I can't exactly bypass the building either because it is part of the objective I really want!

Fire smoke at building.
Use the smoke to position your supporting weapons unmolested.
After smoke clears suppress the heck out of the building.
Fix bayonets.

Fix-Bayonets.jpg

:D

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On 12/13/2020 at 1:36 AM, General Jack Ripper said:

Okay.

Heavy modular buildings have always been very strong defensively. What you've experienced is two very select instances that are no doubt very frustrating, but aren't indicative of the average.

In SF2 your infantry are armed with guns that shoot tiny little bullets, that will not really penetrate buildings at any distance aside from point blank range. You need to rely on your 40mm and .50cal to get any real results. I make it an SOP for my Strykers to follow my infantry at a distance of about 3-400 meters and use their 40mm and 50cal to engage enemy in buildings. When the enemy is flushed into the open, they then become easy meat for my infantry.

A good example can be seen in this video:

I can't speak to the Fortress Italy example because I've only played a few scenarios, and am not yet completely familiar with the Italian TO&E.

One thing you might want to keep in mind is to use an Area Target order to deliberately f_ck up the building to convince the enemy to exit, or at least keep them pinned so you can close assault them.

Like this:

Then again, you might just have run into someone with the 'Fanatic' trait, which while extremely rare, does occasionally happen.

Well all good if you have armour or 50 cal to use but my little ww2 infantry only have 30 cal and tiny bazaooka that did not much work to the building, I'm pretty sure IRL it would not have such small impact to a buildings exterior but in combat mission it had little effect in my scenario.

On 12/13/2020 at 2:00 AM, General Jack Ripper said:

Fire smoke at building.
Use the smoke to position your supporting weapons unmolested.
After smoke clears suppress the heck out of the building.
Fix bayonets.

Fix-Bayonets.jpg

:D

Yes, I did try to use smoke to cover the building but for some reason they were still able to see through it. I don't know if that was because they were only 60mm mortar rounds and the elevation from the upper floor meant they could look down and see the helmets from my infantry. Even when I tried to rush squads close their MG42 and MP40 cut my men down. I have never had issues with clearing buildings this scenario was one of the first time I found a building with one squad in it that could mow down infantry without a care from suppression or multi angle fire.

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It is possible that this is one of those strange LOS phenomena in CM2.  Perhaps, the angle that the enemy are firing from (the window of the building) enables them to shoot at friendly units.  However, perhaps only one or so of the friendly units can see and shoot that enemy unit - hence the lack of expected result.

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10 hours ago, bf5213 said:

Well all good if you have armour or 50 cal to use but my little ww2 infantry only have 30 cal and tiny bazaooka that did not much work to the building, I'm pretty sure IRL it would not have such small impact to a buildings exterior but in combat mission it had little effect in my scenario.

30 cal. HMGs (i.e. the watercooled ones) in the WWII games can put out very good suppressing fire against buildings, and there are various light vehicles that have .50 cal HMGs (and lots of ammo), that are not good for much else than long range fire against infantry in hard cover - you're probably better off to keep them further back than 300m in WWII titles though.

It's actually not that hard to eliminate an infantry squad in a building with a vehicle .50 cal in the WWII games (what matters a lot is the amount of ammo you have), even in CMFI where buildings are almost all made of stone.

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13 hours ago, Freyberg said:

30 cal. HMGs (i.e. the watercooled ones) in the WWII games can put out very good suppressing fire against buildings, and there are various light vehicles that have .50 cal HMGs (and lots of ammo), that are not good for much else than long range fire against infantry in hard cover - you're probably better off to keep them further back than 300m in WWII titles though.

It's actually not that hard to eliminate an infantry squad in a building with a vehicle .50 cal in the WWII games (what matters a lot is the amount of ammo you have), even in CMFI where buildings are almost all made of stone.

Yeah it would be nice but this scenario is infantry only and no vehicles in the battle so there is no 50 cal to suppress the building which is why I am saying it was difficult to take out the building.

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Buildings are hard cover in the game and small arms fire at best suppresses only. Buildings have numerous rooms and a defender as in real life modifies a house with sandbags and even trenches. In the game buildings are abstract and there is no detail. Breaching walls is the technique to deal with MOUT situations. Example Binh Ba Vietnam June 1969 The Australian army dealt with urban combat in the following manner. Centurion tanks were the first to give their position away to force the enemy to reveal their positions. They breached the wall of the houses by HE followed by Cannister to deal with the enemy inside. The operation lasted most of the day. The NVA and Vietcong had modified the town and could withdraw and reenter building through their network of tunnels. I found this true in Combat Mission you need a means to breach walls to be effective in Combat Mission. Only infantry? You risk unacceptable losses, Infantry finds the enemy in MOUT combat supporting arms destroys it and finally the infantry seizes the objective, they find a mostly demoralized enemy. The game reflects what a competent enemy does in MOUT operations. 

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The game really needs a suppression command to help conserve ammo and make fire and maneuver tactics more doable. I imagine it working in the way that each soldier in a unit shoots one round, then follows a 1-2 second pause, and then the next soldier shoots. 

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Playing at present Breaking the Bank on Iron. Progress so so. Selected this mission because it is a MOUT operation. The Syrians have a ring of outposts willing too quickly to surrender. Once your troops move in the building to take their surrender they are ambushed. I have one squad severely affected. You kill 50% of the outpost the others go MIA. The defense factors of buildings in CM is hypothetical. I suppose positioning a sniper with a cover arc suggests he will keyhole towards the objective and makes the likelihood that he will be spotted unlikely unless his luck runs out because he didn't reposition himself. The purpose of Wargaming is too develop a model which works in real life and nothing does it cheaper than a computer. What kills infantry well anything what says boom. Advice from a Waffen SS veteran "The one who shoots first usually lives longer." It works in CM, scout enters the building with a short cover arc. The cover arc is the key it seems, he will look through the right window instead of staring at a wall. He gets a sound contact if there are forces in the house or houses nearby. The remainder of the squad will enter after a 45 second pause so at the next turn you have intelligence of the enemy. It is your call fight or withdraw. Use DOPE in the game. Data Of Personal Equipment aka the Snipers Bible it works with computer games too not only with the Sniper Equipment all the equipment in CM. Happy gaming.

Edited by chuckdyke
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On 12/23/2020 at 8:33 PM, AtheistDane said:

I imagine it working in the way that each soldier in a unit shoots one round, then follows a 1-2 second pause, and then the next soldier shoots. 

Imagination is a powerful thing, but in reality the Target Light command is your friend.

Tactical Tip #1: DO NOT BE AFRAID OF RUNNING OUT OF AMMO, BE AFRAID OF SPENDING IT INEFFECTIVELY.

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On 12/23/2020 at 8:08 PM, chuckdyke said:

Playing at present Breaking the Bank

Enjoyed this scenario.  One has to be very systematic and disciplined in the assault.  Often that means waiting until all the forces are in position to deliver overwhelming firepower to take out a key building, then repositioning for the next one.  It becomes a MOUT process with SOP.

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