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Infantry in buildings just won't die.. (and now they won't run away either..)


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I have noticed that since the latest patch (?) infantry can survive small arms fire in buildings for a ridiculous amount of time.

My first weird experience was in Shock Force 2, when a tiny Syrian section kept on living for 9 (!) turns against the hailstorm of fire from 20 of my guys (veteran/crack, distance about 175 m) and the only thing that was doing damage to them and eventually cut them down one by one was the weapon mounted grenade launchers.

They popped up, received fire, got pinned, recovered, popped up, got fired upon - rince and repeat.

The same is happening in my current Fortress Italy game, when a solitary Amicerican heavy machine gunner at the bottom floor of a building just straight up refuses to die against 2*10 riflemen, 2 HQ elements (with 1+1 breda machine guns), and a deployable heavy machine gun section. The only difference is that I don't have any kinds of explosives to do actual damage, so I am playing the above whack a mole and frankly, it's getting rather silly.

I don't know whether buildings got "stronger" or the phenomenon is due to the fact that units are now very reluctant to leave good cover. Nevertheless it is extremely annoying.

So, is it me or this really an issue now?

Thanks,

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The cover effect of buildings depends a lot on the distance, as well as the type of building etc. I don't think they are too strong. And I don't think they got stronger in the recent patch. It's just that troops won't readily run out of the building to get shot outside anymore. An improvement, I think.

Instead of playing whack-a-mole, try suppressing them with one team, while you move another team closer.

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56 minutes ago, SDG said:

They popped up, received fire, got pinned, recovered, popped up, got fired upon - rince and repeat.

The same is happening in my current Fortress Italy game,

That does sound frustrating.  The below might be what is happening and how to get at the OpFor. 

Area fire is needed for suppression.  If you Target an OpFor team, they'll duck. Then, with them out of LOS, your men will stop shooting, their morale will recover, they will pop up and shoot your guys, in turn your guys will shoot at them, they'll duck, recover, repeat.  Area target will keep the incoming fire at their location even when they are out of LOS.  This also gives you the option to move another team into grenade range while the OpFor team is suppressed.  

Also It takes approximately 30 seconds for a Pinned unit to recover once fire stops being directed at them. 

And Hand grenade range is 3 Action Spots but only 1 A/S for buildings (must be next to the building).

 

Edited by MOS:96B2P
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Thanks for the replies guys.

I'am anything but a CM expert but I did put in a few hundreds hours into the game and never before have I encountered this "problem".

I presume earlier heavy small arms fire forced infantry to vacate the buildings and now they just adopted a "honey badger doesn't care attitude".

All I'am asking is whether this is working as intended i.e. :

  • I either storm the building as you pointed out by using supressing fire;
  • or I use heavy weapons (grenade launchers, 20 mm autocannons etc.) to clear out the "residents".

I HATED the previous retreat mechanics (especially when my guys were fleeing towards the enemy), but to me it is still silly that from 175m, twenty veteran/crack marines with scoped rifles cannot dispatch some Syrians shooting from the windows of a stone building.

neverdie.jpg

The dude's not even on the ground floor (which should supposedly grant you the best possible cover).

Below is the screen taken from the FI shootout:

CM-Fortress-Italy-2020-11-08-19-57-59-76

ALL of my forces present on the screen are trying to take out that single guy on the right corner.. Range 150-225m.

Edited by SDG
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25 minutes ago, SDG said:

I presume earlier heavy small arms fire forced infantry to vacate the buildings and now they just adopted a "honey badger doesn't care attitude".

All I'am asking is whether this is working as intended i.e. :

  • I either storm the building as you pointed out by using supressing fire;
  • or I use heavy weapons (grenade launchers, 20 mm autocannons etc.) to clear out the "residents".

I HATED the previous retreat mechanics (especially when my guys were fleeing towards the enemy), but to me it is still silly that from 175m, twenty veteran/crack marines with scoped rifles cannot dispatch some Syrians shooting from the windows of a stone building.

In short, it is working as intended now. The TacAI used to be very prone to fleeing, even out of good cover. The player could essentially shoot the enemy off their position, which is not realistic at all. 

Your two bullet points are correct. The only way to dislodge a determined enemy from a building is to either manually clear the building (costly, time consuming, dangerous, hard, etc...) or to level the building and kill the survivors. Urban warfare is extremely tough, extremely deadly, and there is no easy way of doing it. 

Its also realistic for the enemy to be so survivable in urban environments despite your veteran marines with scoped rifles. Hitting anything in an urban environment is extremely difficult, despite the closer ranges. More cover and concealment, harder to spot man sized targets despite generally being closer, better and more plentiful cover... the list goes on. Again, the short of it is that urban warfare is really hard, for anyone. Doesn't matter how well you are trained or how sexy your equipment is, urban warfare is a great equalizer. 

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I think part of why you're so frustrated with this situation is that the graphics of the game are quite abstracted, so it just shows you a guy standing in front of a window. Should be an easy target in real life. But I assume the game emulates the troops in the building fighting in a bit more intelligent way than what you actually see.

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29 minutes ago, SDG said:

All I'am asking is whether this is working as intended i.e. :

  • I either storm the building as you pointed out by using supressing fire;
  • or I use heavy weapons (grenade launchers, 20 mm autocannons etc.) to clear out the "residents".

I HATED the previous retreat mechanics (especially when my guys were fleeing towards the enemy), but to me it is still silly that from 175m, twenty veteran/crack marines with scoped rifles cannot dispatch some Syrians shooting from the windows of a stone building.  

It sounds like it is probably working as intended.  If you are allowing your troops to "fire at will" or you are giving them a Target command (red line) on the OpFor teams what you are describing will happen.  For the reasons explained above.  Constant Area Fire is needed to suppress and maintain suppression.  I often Target the action spot in front of the building or target the building.  Don't target the OpFor teams (in this particular situation).

Yes there are two general choices.  The first is lead broom from a distance until the building is brought down or the OpFor displace or die in place.  The second choice (when you don't have the ability for #1) is heavy suppression and close & hose.  Both options need constant Area Fire and will use up lots of ammo.  

Nine turns is a long time to us players.  In pixeltroopen game time that is only nine minutes.  So it sounds like nine minutes of sporadic fire has been used.  Five minutes of constant fire with enough weapons will generally get the desired result.     

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Yeah it reminds me of a small village. Receiving heavy shots, probably 12.7mm, from one house. Calling in 120mm mortar indirects. Several direct hits on the house. The guys inside were shocked but they continue to fire just after. It was a DShK team. I hate DShK. But it was indeed a good tactical problem. 🙃

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It's notable since I think 2.13 in Black Sea that defenders in good cover can last a long time under certain circumstances. It does make fish'n'chips hard work, but it was never easy, and it's also a two-way street: Your troops won't break so easily from a defensible position.

I do find it frustrating (one RPG team lived an incredibly long time) but I don't think it's broken.

As regards spotting and hitting the person by the window, this may be a case of the 3D world and modelled abstraction not being in coincidence; perhaps the game engine considered him concealed in some way - again a very common thing.

 

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On 11/8/2020 at 11:21 AM, SDG said:

I have noticed that since the latest patch (?) infantry can survive small arms fire in buildings for a ridiculous amount of time.

My first weird experience was in Shock Force 2, when a tiny Syrian section kept on living for 9 (!) turns against the hailstorm of fire from 20 of my guys (veteran/crack, distance about 175 m) and the only thing that was doing damage to them and eventually cut them down one by one was the weapon mounted grenade launchers.

They popped up, received fire, got pinned, recovered, popped up, got fired upon - rince and repeat.

The same is happening in my current Fortress Italy game, when a solitary Amicerican heavy machine gunner at the bottom floor of a building just straight up refuses to die against 2*10 riflemen, 2 HQ elements (with 1+1 breda machine guns), and a deployable heavy machine gun section. The only difference is that I don't have any kinds of explosives to do actual damage, so I am playing the above whack a mole and frankly, it's getting rather silly.

I don't know whether buildings got "stronger" or the phenomenon is due to the fact that units are now very reluctant to leave good cover. Nevertheless it is extremely annoying.

So, is it me or this really an issue now?

Thanks,

Now, I don't mind troops not dying as quick (as troops in RL should live longer then in your typical CM engagement)...However, I think the latest patch made Troops last too long in cover...I'm playing a Game with both sides Green, High Motivation, 0 Leadership, and we are both in buildings shooting at each other directly across street for 10 minutes. So, instead of going to ground and crawling out of cover after few minutes (like in previous patches), they stay and fight until they all surrender (as if your engaging High Moral Fanatical Troops). 

I might have to experiment with having troops Green, Normal Motivation, 0 or -1 Leadership...Conscript, High Motivation, 0 Leadership, OR...Reg, Low Motivation, -1 Leadership to try and get the desired results I'm looking for. I still like the idea of Troops lasting longer in cover, but think it went a little too far, especially for low quality troops ? 

Edited by JoMc67
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For the record, as far as I know, there were no changes made to the "cover save" of buildings or general cover in the latest patches. What is being seen could be the result of other changes made, such as infantry being much less likely to be shot out of their positions, but I do not think it is due to cover being "buffed" for infantry in any way. 

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Personally I think this is the way it is supposed to be.  A 10 minutes firefight between troops in good cover isn't shocking at all if their motivation is good. It is what we sometimes had before with soldiers just fleeing and getting mowed down in the open that was wrong. Now you need to actually maneuver to root them out or be prepared to have a prolonged firefight. I find it both more enjoyable and realistic. And it is not necessary to actually assault the position. A crossfire will usually do.

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I haven't tested this, but I have observed that in recent games (all with CMFI:RV) troops are more resistant when in buildings, but are also less likely to massacre storming parties. I'm guessing (based on my experience and comments above), once suppressed, they are more like to cower and less likely to bug out.

This is OK - storming buildings is fun. It was probably a little too hard before.

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I often think it's a bit strange that pixeltruppen outside of a building, sometimes even quite far away from it, even can see what's inside it. In real life it's often, or usually, only possible to see what's inside a building if the lights are on in the rooms and there's not much sun outside.

It of course also depends on how large the windows are.

Edited by BornGinger
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55 minutes ago, BornGinger said:

I often think it's a bit strange that pixeltruppen outside of a building, sometimes even quite far away from it, even can see what's inside it.

I notice you are playing CMSF2 from the blue force side so I'd imagine the professional soldiers with high experience is partly causing this. Switch to WW2 titles or to the Syrians and you may experience something a touch different. It's also easier to spot things that are moving so the Syrians maybe spotting your troops as they move into position. You also become very easy to spot once your pixeltruppen start firing their weapons effectively sending giant "I am here" flares.

Yes the recent patch did toughen up the morale of infantry in hard cover but that was after some horrible (IMO and I think many others) experiences of troops breaking far to easily and fleeing hard cover/good positions where running meant getting killed quicker. See my German "Fire and Rubble" Beta AAR thread over in the CMRT forum where I explain my experiences in more detail fighting in an urban environment.

Tips and tricks:

- High explosive is now incredibly important in dislodging an enemy from building (or at least doing it quicker).

- Watch you ammo counts. Your troops will be expending a terrible lot of ammunition now in city fighting given the morale tweaks.

- Keep in mind the calibre of your small arms. A .50 cal round can punch right through a building and out the other side. A 5.56 NATO probably doesn't get past the wall.

- Earlier comments are right. If you target the enemy infantry directly your troops will only shoot when they have positive spots. Plot an area fire order and the troops will keep up the fire. Just because they will likely lose sight of the enemy in the occupied building doesn't mean they can't cause the enemy casualties if the enemy is still occupying the location the fire is heading towards.

- If possible try to get into position first so your troops have more chance of spotting and shooting first.

- The first few seconds of the engagement are critical. Try to overwhelm the enemy in the first few seconds of a firefight when they are unaware and still out of position/exposed in windows etc. Open fire with one team of a few rifles it alerts the enemy. Open with a whole platoon and there's a good 10 fold increase of bullets heading their way as they are exposed. My AAR has a good example of this where the Soviet slaughtered pretty much a full platoon and about 15 seconds as they were still setting up inside the building.

- The hunt command is essential for entering pretty much any building in a modern title so your troops are guns up and ready to engage contact.

 

Hope that helps.

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An argument could be made that scenarios have gotten too ambitious. You're presented with a huge map and multiple distant objectives when you could instead spend the entire scenario  clearing that copse of trees of entrenched enemy neutralizing the threat from that farmhouse.

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44 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

An argument could be made that scenarios have gotten too ambitious. You're presented with a huge map and multiple distant objectives when you could instead spend the entire scenario  clearing that copse of trees of entrenched enemy neutralizing the threat from that farmhouse.

I definitely see that argument. I would slightly modify it to say that it’s not necessarily the large maps and objectives that are the problem, it’s that the player isn’t given the proper assets to tackle the scenario. 
 

I think some scenario designers do this to increase the challenge of scenarios, especially in SF2 where the two sides are so inherently unequal. It still bothers me though, when I’m given a battalion objective and told to take it with a company team and some paltry fire support. 

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Well, went back to my Play Testing Scenario, CMBN: Training Roadblock, and changed all Defending Units to Green, Normal Motivation, then again Conscript, Normal Motivation (attacking U.S. Green, Normal-High Motivation), and both games have the defenders in building surrendering (not leaving buildings for other outside cover) after a few turns of Small Arms or HE Area-Fire (Direct Small Arms wasn't effective enough). 

This tells me that NOW not even Low Quality troops in buildings are leaving and falling back for cover from Small Arms or a turn of HE, but dying or surrendering in place. This is something you would expect maybe from High Quality/Motivation Troops, not Low Quality...I think Infantry in buildings seem to have the same Moral as being in Bunkers now and maybe Tuned-Up too much. 

 

 

Edited by JoMc67
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11 hours ago, Ithikial_AU said:

Yes the recent patch did toughen up the morale of infantry in hard cover but that was after some horrible (IMO and I think many others) experiences of troops breaking far to easily and fleeing hard cover/good positions where running meant getting killed quicker.

They didnt toughen up their morale they simply disabled retreating from buildings making them deathtraps against competent oponents.

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10 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

I definitely see that argument. I would slightly modify it to say that it’s not necessarily the large maps and objectives that are the problem, it’s that the player isn’t given the proper assets to tackle the scenario. 
 

I think some scenario designers do this to increase the challenge of scenarios, especially in SF2 where the two sides are so inherently unequal. It still bothers me though, when I’m given a battalion objective and told to take it with a company team and some paltry fire support. 

Yes. I don't mind the current mechanics, but the scenarios requiring you to occupy a large number of buildings when you're given a Platoon are a definite mood in CM2. I am not good enough to win by these  conditions so I play tactically and try and inflict as much losses as possible while usually settling for a single objective.

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