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Are ATGs tougher than they used to be?


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Having returned to the game after a while, I'm surprised how hard it is to take guns with any form area fire. Sure it used to be easier. Always used to bring some arty on them (not even particularly heavy stuff) to take them out. They seem bomb-proof these days.

Did this happen in a patch at some point?

I hammered one with two heavy medium length missions from a 105mm recently and it was still firing come the end of them. Didn't even appear the crew were harmed.

Fair enough if it's realistic (is t?), but I'm sure it used to be easier.

Edited by John1966
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If anything, they have been made easier to knock out.

I remember about 5 years ago, I played a CMBN mission where 88mm guns were in a hedgeline. I hit it with 105mm artillery, and couldnt understand how the 88s could keep firing. After the battle, I checked the position, and found one 88 sitting literally on top of a crater. It had lost a couple of crew, but was still fully operational.

Haven't really seen that kind of thing lately.

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Well, for all I was saying about the on-map stuff, just had a tank immobilised by an ATG (after it had survived the off-map arty), so it just area fired the damn thing until it was out of HE (20-odd rounds). Then suppressed it with target light to keep it quiet (an impressive over-1,000 rounds were expended) and when my infantry got there, it was still functioning.

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16 hours ago, John1966 said:

Well, for all I was saying about the on-map stuff, just had a tank immobilised by an ATG (after it had survived the off-map arty), so it just area fired the damn thing until it was out of HE (20-odd rounds). Then suppressed it with target light to keep it quiet (an impressive over-1,000 rounds were expended) and when my infantry got there, it was still functioning.

please post a screenshot

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It must be to do with the cover.

The Gun That Would Not Die was behind bocage.

While that was unfolding, one of my other tanks got another gun with a single shot. In foxholes but otherwise the open.

(Although that had also been subject to arty so I think it'd lost crew already - possibly it was already KO'd before the shot was fired but the spotting info didn't confirm until after the shot)

Edited by John1966
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2 hours ago, John1966 said:

Yes, got another one last night with the first shot. No arty involved. Panther spotted it, fired once, knocked it out. It was in the open.

Keep in Mind, Arty in CM works differently then Direct Fire as far as how Suppression/Casualties are worked out. 

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They should be tough. ATGs had armor shield, that covered crew from bullets and shrapnel. In German manual was prohibited to fire mg at distant guns.

Shooting in the question mark with on-map units is a gamey, I think. IRL gunner wouldn't know where exactly is the gun. He could only know that it is "2 hours, 1000m", for example. And using area target player can direct fire with accuracy +-2m.

 

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7 hours ago, DMS said:

 

Shooting in the question mark with on-map units is a gamey, I think. IRL gunner wouldn't know where exactly is the gun. He could only know that it is "2 hours, 1000m", for example. And using area target player can direct fire with accuracy +-2m.

 

I agree. And add to the fact that you don't even ned for the unit to have a contact marker, you can just fire on that position anyway.

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With 1-10k in ammo, no vehicle of mine travels anywhere without first firing a few rounds at every terrain feature or structure on it's path. I don't need contact markers and I'm sure you can find others like me who spend a lot of ammo firing at nothing!

It's worthwhile for the times you discover that you aren't firing at nothing.

It's not gamey and part of SOP by more players than just little old me... just saying.

Feel free to be smug when such fire is harmless to your position but don't then shed tears when it isn't.

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3 minutes ago, Howler said:

It's not gamey and part of SOP by more players than just little old me... just saying.

 

Blowing up suspected positions isn't gamey so shooting at a contact marker can't be gamey either.

But whatever our opinions, it does, at times, seem strange to have large amounts of high explosive going off close to a gun and its crew for sometimes long periods for the gun only to emerge in a functioning state.

I get the gun shield protecting from MGs. That's what it's there for. (Although I expect it to keep the crew's heads down)

But HE can go off a couple of feet behind the gun with little apparent effect.

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I play on iron and I play hotseat almost exclusively.  The "?" jump around continuously until enough time has passed to narrow the spotting down.  It can sometimes take a very long time, depending on distance, number of eyes, distance between spotters, size of target, concealment in terrain, experience of both sides, morale of both sides, etc.

Don't force me to take a pic.

Thinking more about this, it reflects the state of the "?".  It goes from translucent to more solid, to a possible type with a ?.  As time goes on without the contact moving, it goes through all of those stages.  When its in its initial stage, it not only shifts position, it can have multiple "?" reflected from spotting reports from multiple friendly units that aren't in comms.  Some of this is from the Iron setting.  Its all from memory because I haven't played in quite a few months.

Edited by Thewood1
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It always did seem like the guy who sits in the little chair on the 88mm gun can be remarkably impervious to shrapnel or blast or anything else. The rest of the crew will usually get killed very quickly, but there is always that last guy controlling the gun who can be really hard to kill. This is sometimes the case with other types of guns and it's been like that for years as far as I can remember. 88mm guns have always stood out to me as being especially hard to kill though.

Maybe I'm wrong or it's confirmation bias or something. It's not always a sure thing and I've seen some guns get taken out quickly, but sometimes they just seem invincible, soaking up 100+ artillery shells and thousands upon thousands of machine gun bullets.

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15 hours ago, Thewood1 said:

I play on iron and I play hotseat almost exclusively.  The "?" jump around continuously until enough time has passed to narrow the spotting down.  It can sometimes take a very long time, depending on distance, number of eyes, distance between spotters, size of target, concealment in terrain, experience of both sides, morale of both sides, etc.

I think you might be confusing CM2 with CM1.. back in the first games, the spotting contacts were apparently not exact.

When you see icons jumping around in CM2, it reflects the spotting info from various units getting combined. Each unit has its own spotting picture of where it thinks enemy contacts are (where it last saw them) and those are getting sent up to higher levels of command. When you deselect all units, you are seeing the combined spotting map. That's where markers will sometimes jump around. Not from spotting for long enough time, but because new info from units come in and the overall map gets updated.

When spotted tanks move from their initial location, their contact marker is for some reason not getting updated through C2. In those cases, you can spot a tank in a different place from its contact marker.

In the case of AT-guns, you can count on the spotting markers being exact. Because the guns are very unlikely to move.

Edited by Bulletpoint
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8 hours ago, Bozowans said:

sometimes they just seem invincible, soaking up 100+ artillery shells and thousands upon thousands of machine gun bullets.

This could be an example of one of the abstractions which CM2 uses to enable ATG's to live longer.  Many had complained that they were too easily spotted and killed.

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22 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

But that's deliberate I think, not a bug.

Never really thought about it but I do wonder why it leaves a contact if the player knows it's been KO'd (ie they've seen it confirmed as a kill). Doesn't seem to have any effect on the game to then leave a contact after the confirmed kill.

Does cause confusion occasionally when you think some new tanks have turned up but then remember there's a wreck there.

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