Best way to get pixeltruppen to toss grenades at tanks/AFVs?

[rocketman]

Like the title says. I have pixeltruppen in buildings or behind bocage, not under fire or suppressed, and I want them to toss grenades. I try Target Armour Arc, Direct Fire or no order and yet they stay passive. Self preservation? In your experience, when do they engage with grenades as opposed to demo charges which seems more commonly used.

[John1966]

I like assaulting tanks and do it a lot. But I have no idea what the answer to this is.

Yesterday I had three grenade armed infantry teams in a building with a tank practically touching it. Despite all having direct fire orders on the tank, only one was thrown.

So the next turn I moved them out of the building with a move order right on top of the tank. That seemed to motivate them. Two grenades thrown (by the same guy) and one was a bigger bang (bundle?). Tank destroyed.

I have no idea what was going on under the hood and I've still no idea how you get them to do it. Sometimes they chuck grenades with gay abandon. Sometimes they don't.

My only observation is that they tend to be more motivated when they're outside.

[Glubokii Boy]

Do not the tossing of grenades simulate close assult of the tanks...? being in the open would therefore be preferable i guess...

Other then close assult...where single handgrenades at all effective against a '44, '45 tank ?

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, rocketman said:

Like the title says. I have pixeltruppen in buildings or behind bocage, not under fire or suppressed, and I want them to toss grenades. I try Target Armour Arc, Direct Fire or no order and yet they stay passive. Self preservation? In your experience, when do they engage with grenades as opposed to demo charges which seems more commonly used.

Below, in italics, is a post by @YankeeDog that I have always found useful. 

Infantry will not attempt to close assault vehicles from inside a building; you have to order them outside. Also, NEVER give infantry a TARGET order if you want them to close assault a vehicle or bunker. The TARGET order tells a unit to use whatever weapons it has against the target, regardless of effectiveness. This can be useful, e.g., when you want a unit to shoot small arms at a tank from one direction to distract it, while another unit assaults the tank from a different direction. But the close assaulting unit should be left to make its own targeting decisions. Possibly a short cover arc to prevent it from engaging other, more distant enemy, but nothing more than this. Generally speaking, as long as an infantry unit is in good order and has hand grenades, it will use them on any armor or bunker that is in grenade range.

Rule of thumb; a fire team must be outside a building to close assault.  However grenades and demo charges will get thrown from the upper floors on to open topped vehicles.  

Below is my Grenade CQB vs Armor: 

1. Use a fire team with a lot of hand grenades (typically an assault team).  The fewer grenades the AI has it seems more reluctant to use them.  

2. Give fire team a 360^oTarget Arc¹ of 24 meters.

3. Exit building.  (teams must be outside to close assault vehicle) 
4. Fast fire team to within 2 A/S of the flank or rear of the tank.

5. On their own the team will throw grenades.

6. Prepare for the tank crew to dismount shooting.  (When they bail it will be like the OK Corral )  

Notes: 1) An Armor Target Arc will not allow the fire team to fire on the bailed out tank crew.

Edited October 31, 2020 by MOS:96B2P

[John1966]

3 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

(teams must be outside to close assault vehicle) 

Is that definitely 100% correct?

In the example from last night I described, one grenade was definitely dispatched from a building.

Thinking about it, I assumed the reason they were reluctant from inside the building was the shortage of windows. There was only one window next to the tank so really only one guy was in a position to throw a grenade at it. But he did.

Although, I would definitely agree successful close assaults need to be done from outside. They're remarkably effective too. Perhaps too effective. I definitely don't recommend the fabled "AFV overrun" in CM. Excellent short cut to losing a tank.

[rocketman]

Great post @MOS:96B2P, I wonder if they will throw grenades through bocage or if it is too thick.

[MOS:96B2P]

10 minutes ago, John1966 said:

Is that definitely 100% correct?

The only exception I have seen is throwing grenades at open top vehicles from an upper floor.  However, there must be the occasional exception since you witnessed it.  For SOPs in drills I try to use what works best most of the time.  When I find new / better information (often on this forum) I test it and see if it will work most of the time.  I then modify the drill if the new information can be made to work most of time. 

I think it is fair to say for the best results, most of the time, in CQB vs Armor the infantry need to exit the building.  I would never say 100% but probably 95% .  

Speaking of grenades check out the grenade chucking contest below.  Somewhere on the eastern front. 

            

[John1966]

10 minutes ago, rocketman said:

I wonder if they will throw grenades through bocage or if it is too thick.

They chuck grenades through bocage all the time.

I've lost a lot of infantry by going up to bocage I thought I'd cleared only to have that sole indestructible survivor lob a grenade.

[John1966]

Strangely, IIRC, in ASL (or at least classic SL), you had to be inside a building or woods to use the infantry "defensive fire method" (or whatever it was called) on an AFV. Think you could only get an immobilisation with it too.

[MOS:96B2P]

15 minutes ago, rocketman said:

Great post @MOS:96B2P, I wonder if they will throw grenades through bocage or if it is too thick.

 

4 minutes ago, John1966 said:

They chuck grenades through bocage all the time.

I've lost a lot of infantry by going up to bocage I thought I'd cleared only to have that sole indestructible survivor lob a grenade.

This is my experience also.  If not through the bocage they could throw over the bocage like they do with tall walls.

Below, in italics, is a post by @RockinHarry that describes throwing grenades over a tall wall.  I paraphrased the post.  

You can get frags thrown over a high wall by simple use of short range (~10m) area fire beyond a wall. You´ll either receive a blue or grey targeting line, indicating that as long as a unit has a weapon able to reach over a wall (grenades!) it will use them, although the unit can´t actually see the area beyond a wall. The targeting unit’s soldiers attempt to area fire with rifles and such, but can´t. The game mechanic cycles through available weapons until a grenade is selected and then thrown. That means you need to wait until the game picks a random grenade throw from the area target cycle.

Below is the drill for "Fire in the Hole" (grenades over a tall wall).    

1. Quick a team, with hand grenades, to an A/S along the wall opposite the OpFor.

2. Highlight waypoint & give team a Target order over the wall.

Notes: The AI will sometimes allow you to Target over the wall from 3 A/S (hand grenade range).  The most reliable location is next to the wall.  Smoke grenades can also be thrown over a wall.

[Erwin]

4 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

as long as a unit has a weapon able to reach over a wall (grenades!) it will use them, although the unit can´t actually see the area beyond a wall.

That is interesting.  Thanks...

[Freyberg]

The best way to get pixeltroops to do anything is to choose tough SoBs - an appropriate team (e.g. anti-tank, engineer, assault...) with good experience and morale - who know what to do when the opportunity arises...

[rocketman]

On 10/31/2020 at 10:17 PM, MOS:96B2P said:

 

This is my experience also.  If not through the bocage they could throw over the bocage like they do with tall walls.

Below, in italics, is a post by @RockinHarry that describes throwing grenades over a tall wall.  I paraphrased the post.  

You can get frags thrown over a high wall by simple use of short range (~10m) area fire beyond a wall. You´ll either receive a blue or grey targeting line, indicating that as long as a unit has a weapon able to reach over a wall (grenades!) it will use them, although the unit can´t actually see the area beyond a wall. The targeting unit’s soldiers attempt to area fire with rifles and such, but can´t. The game mechanic cycles through available weapons until a grenade is selected and then thrown. That means you need to wait until the game picks a random grenade throw from the area target cycle.

Below is the drill for "Fire in the Hole" (grenades over a tall wall).    

1. Quick a team, with hand grenades, to an A/S along the wall opposite the OpFor.

2. Highlight waypoint & give team a Target order over the wall.

Notes: The AI will sometimes allow you to Target over the wall from 3 A/S (hand grenade range).  The most reliable location is next to the wall.  Smoke grenades can also be thrown over a wall.

Problem with using this method with tall bocage is that it is likely that they will fire their rifles through the bocage as well and reveal their position.

I manged to take out a StuG now. I bum rushed one guy as close as possible and didn't give him any commands. Once he reached his waypoint he quickly tossed two grenades in quick succession befor being gunned down. At first I thought it was a failure but then saw that the StuG was destroyed. Apparently you don't get any hit texts when doing close assaults.

[John1966]

10 minutes ago, rocketman said:

Apparently you don't get any hit texts when doing close assaults.

That is correct but the game is a bit funky on this. I had at least a whole para platoon trying to get a King Tiger. A lot of grenades were thrown. There were no hit texts but eventually the crew bailed and the tank was listed as "knocked out".

So obviously the grenades took it out. But, puzzlingly, at game end it was a PIAT team who were credited with the kill. They were behind it so that was reasonable but why didn't I get a hit/penetration text? Should have done if it was the PIAT and I definitely didn't (because knocking out a King Tiger with infantry requires about 30 re-watches).

[Vergeltungswaffe]

5 minutes ago, John1966 said:

So obviously the grenades took it out. But, puzzlingly, at game end it was a PIAT team who were credited with the kill. They were behind it so that was reasonable but why didn't I get a hit/penetration text? Should have done if it was the PIAT and I definitely didn't (because knocking out a King Tiger with infantry requires about 30 re-watches).

PIAT teams carry grenades too.

[John1966]

1 minute ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

PIAT teams carry grenades too.

That is possible but I'd thought they were out of grenade range. I suppose it's possible that in the chaos (and it was chaos) of the engagement with the KT they got closer than I thought. Mind you, interesting that they'd then opt to use grenades rather than their mighty PIAT.

[rocketman]

19 minutes ago, John1966 said:

That is possible but I'd thought they were out of grenade range. I suppose it's possible that in the chaos (and it was chaos) of the engagement with the KT they got closer than I thought. Mind you, interesting that they'd then opt to use grenades rather than their mighty PIAT.

Note that if you split squads all elements will get the same kill credits in the end.

[John1966]

3 minutes ago, rocketman said:

Note that if you split squads all elements will get the same kill credits in the end.

That's true (which often causes confusion) but I thought it was a dedicated AT team. Perhaps not though. Didn't have the AT icon. But I find the icons a bit inconsistent. No way to check now.

[SimpleSimon]

On 10/31/2020 at 3:16 PM, rocketman said:

Like the title says. I have pixeltruppen in buildings or behind bocage, not under fire or suppressed, and I want them to toss grenades. I try Target Armour Arc, Direct Fire or no order and yet they stay passive. Self preservation? In your experience, when do they engage with grenades as opposed to demo charges which seems more commonly used.

Depends on soft factors but in general, hand-thrown anti-tank weapons are a point blank weapon mainly for self defense. They can be used in a vehicle close assault, but the circumstances for that to be anything other than totally suicidal will be rare. In any case, dont bother with any of the "target" commands, just a movement command as close as possible to the enemy vehicle. Initiation of attack is based almost entirely on proximity. 

[FlemFire]

Are basic "Grenades" capable of destroying armor? I've seen it done with guys throwing from windows into open-top vehicles, but curious about other situations, or Modern ones for example.

[mjkerner]

Khalerick, yes, grenades are abstracted, so your troops will throw anti-tank 'nades as needed...usually.  Not always easy to tell until the tank is immobilized or destroyed.

[Warts 'n' all]

Playing one of the "In the Shadow of the hill" battles yesterday. I had an Engineer Team take out a Tiger. They began the turn with 2 Satchel charges and 6 Grenades, and ended the turn with exactly the same amount. So they must also have had some kind of Grenade bundles that do not show up in their ammo count. It was great fun watching them lob them over the hedge followed by flames coming out the bloated kitty.

[rocketman]

48 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Playing one of the "In the Shadow of the hill" battles yesterday. I had an Engineer Team take out a Tiger. They began the turn with 2 Satchel charges and 6 Grenades, and ended the turn with exactly the same amount. So they must also have had some kind of Grenade bundles that do not show up in their ammo count. It was great fun watching them lob them over the hedge followed by flames coming out the bloated kitty.

I think all grenades and demo charges used during the turn is deducted at the start of the turn. So no invisible grenade bundles I think.

I bet it was satisfying taking out the Tiger. Was it a planned assault or did they act on their own accord?

[Warts 'n' all]

3 hours ago, rocketman said:

I think all grenades and demo charges used during the turn is deducted at the start of the turn. So no invisible grenade bundles I think.

I bet it was satisfying taking out the Tiger. Was it a planned assault or did they act on their own accord?

You might well be right on the ammo count thing. I shall have to pay more attention to it in future.

A nearby PIAT team had run out of ammo, so I crawled the Engineers over and gave them a Target command, more in hope than expectation.

[FlemFire]

On 1/25/2021 at 1:26 PM, mjkerner said:

Khalerick, yes, grenades are abstracted, so your troops will throw anti-tank 'nades as needed...usually.  Not always easy to tell until the tank is immobilized or destroyed.

Thanks. Got to see this for myself quite recently -- uncons disabling a Stryker (though just how much damage they did is not something I'll likely know for awhile).