Few Questions

[Titanius Peck]

 

 Greetings, long time lurker and Demo tryer. This game intrigues me yet i can never commit to the Buy button as its pretty pricey relatively speaking. What is the difference between Engine 3 (the Demo im on) and Engine 4 -think i saw it was snappier AI responses?

- Why is there no blood? Im not a gore nut but a certain level of violence is needed to convey warfare. Are there mods that remedy this?

- How moddable is the game outside of maps and models. Im a longtime Arma AI modder - and one thing i like to do is add experience to successful troops. It makes the AI far more interesting when they "rank up" and become better skilled soldiers through their actions -making you bond to them and hoping for their success. Is this type of thing doable in this modding system? What language is the mod tools using?

 

Thanks! I do enjoy the demo i feel like a little more polish for missions and things like troops that rank up and carry over from mission to mission would really step it up to the next level

Edited October 30, 2020 by Titanius Peck

[Ultradave]

- I've never seen a "blood" mod. I'll leave it at that.

- There are tons of mods, from maps, to dirty vehicles, to faces, to uniforms, to user interface. Check here for a sampling: 

       https://www.thefewgoodmen.com/cm-mod-warehouse/    At the same site - The Few Good Men, there is also a scenario repository with many more user created scenarios and campaigns to add to the base game.

The newer game engine does indeed have "better" AI.  That is for the enemy forces, as well as the TAC AI that controls your individual troops after you give orders. Plus new additions to existing titles will require it.  I'm not positive but I don't think you can actually buy the older version 3 anymore. (I could be wrong about that).

The scenarios that come with the game are not linear. They are all different, so that you don't have individuals that would gain promotions. It's not that kind of game. Campaign durations are pretty short, so what CAN happen is that leaders get killed and a team member fills that slot. But it's not something you pay attention to as identifying with an individual soldier, more just that it happens.

You can create your own Quick Battles. There are a bunch of maps included for that or you can make your own. You can control the level of experience/proficiency of the troops involved. You can create scenarios the same way, using the editor.

Hope that helps.

Dave

[kevinkin]

TP ... if you have played the demos and can't hit the buy button, I wonder if the game is really for you? The demos are a good intro into the game play. Yes, it's an upper tier game pricewise. But you get what you pay for. BTW, BF committed to being as apolicial with as little gore as possible right for the start 20 years ago. However, if you read the forums, you will all of that anyway. 

[Titanius Peck]

13 minutes ago, kevinkin said:

TP ... if you have played the demos and can't hit the buy button, I wonder if the game is really for you? The demos are a good intro into the game play. Yes, it's an upper tier game pricewise. But you get what you pay for. BTW, BF committed to being as apolicial with as little gore as possible right for the start 20 years ago. However, if you read the forums, you will all of that anyway. 

 

 What do you mean "not for me"? The combat/strategy aspect is fantastic yet other polishes would really enhance it like more radio comms, speech fom HQ thru chain of comand, and the possibility to chain missions together into a cohesive campaign with troops that survive and can be promoted etc... Since i am in Demo -I have no clue whether the "REAL GAME" has those types of features - hence why i am here asking. You've probably been on this forums a while but to the outsider rounding up a clear overall picture is pretty tough here - i have seen no mention of anything bout being apolitical or not wanting to offend anyone via gore -is there an area of Stickys Im missing?

Again im a lifelong Operation Flashpoint to now Arma 3 modder and my team is on the cusp of a major AI pathfinding (building fighting) release. This game looks to have a realy really nice RTS military foundation but feels abit empty in the personality dept. Arma is also a sandbox and alls we do is create our own scenarios in the editor but the editor is extremely robust and your relly only limited by your ability to code SQF and your imagination.

 

This series seems to have flourished for some time im just wondering if the Devs ever try and "branch out" in terms of production values or giving modders the tools to do so

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Titanius Peck

[MOS:96B2P]

10 hours ago, Titanius Peck said:

- Why is there no blood? Im not a gore nut but a certain level of violence is needed to convey warfare. Are there mods that remedy this?

There are mods that turn the casualty base into a puddle of blood like below:

 

There is also the wounded mod which shows some bloody bandages.

 

[Titanius Peck]

5 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

There are mods that turn the casualty base into a puddle of blood like below:

 

There is also the wounded mod which shows some bloody bandages.

 

Ahhh very nice (no sicko) - thank you

[A Canadian Cat]

10 hours ago, Titanius Peck said:

 Greetings, long time lurker and Demo tryer. This game intrigues me yet i can never commit to the Buy button as its pretty pricey relatively speaking. What is the difference between Engine 3 (the Demo im on) and Engine 4 -think i saw it was snappier AI responses?

Here is the summary list: https://www.battlefront.com/cmfb-upgrades/cmfb-upgrade-4/?tab=features

Hull down and solider behaviour (spacing, avoiding HE and peaking around corners) are my favourites but there is a lot there

 

10 hours ago, Titanius Peck said:

- Why is there no blood? Im not a gore nut but a certain level of violence is needed to convey warfare. Are there mods that remedy this?

Stated policy by Steve, they don't want gore in the game. I had a quick look and could not find a thread to quote.

I see @MOS:96B2P showed off a couple of mods that introduce this. I could not find them on the CM Mods site - @MOS:96B2P do you have links?

 

10 hours ago, Titanius Peck said:

- How moddable is the game outside of maps and models. Im a longtime Arma AI modder - and one thing i like to do is add experience to successful troops. It makes the AI far more interesting when they "rank up" and become better skilled soldiers through their actions -making you bond to them and hoping for their success. Is this type of thing doable in this modding system? What language is the mod tools using?

It is not. The game supports re skinning of the UI and the models but it does not support changing the AI behaviour and the properties of armour or weapons.

 

10 hours ago, Titanius Peck said:

Thanks! I do enjoy the demo i feel like a little more polish for missions and things like troops that rank up and carry over from mission to mission would really step it up to the next level

The campaigns in the game take place over the course of a day or part of a day. At most a few days. In real life soldiers don't get significantly better or promoted that fast. And I am sure someone will come along with a specific counter example but having it happen from time to time does not change the reality that in the CM time frames it is not normal or even rare.

[MOS:96B2P]

20 minutes ago, IanL said:

I see @MOS:96B2P showed off a couple of mods that introduce this. I could not find them on the CM Mods site - @MOS:96B2P do you have links?

Here is one link.  The mod works in all titles. 

http://cmmodsiii.greenasjade.net/?p=6150

[Erwin]

Have always liked this mod and use it in all games.  However.... be aware that in certain terrains it's not as easy to see as the default marker.  It's not uncommon to "lose sight" of a WIA and never find the poor bugger to administer aid.

[Titanius Peck]

36 minutes ago, IanL said:

Here is the summary list: https://www.battlefront.com/cmfb-upgrades/cmfb-upgrade-4/?tab=features

Hull down and solider behaviour (spacing, avoiding HE and peaking around corners) are my favourites but there is a lot there

Great exactly what i was looking for

36 minutes ago, IanL said:

It is not. The game supports re skinning of the UI and the models but it does not support changing the AI behaviour and the properties of armour or weapons.

Ahh a bummer.

36 minutes ago, IanL said:

The campaigns in the game take place over the course of a day or part of a day. At most a few days. In real life soldiers don't get significantly better or promoted that fast.

Yeah i would agree though i think you would also agree that may shortcuts take place in strategy games as to best convey things like experience being condensed into game time from real world time.  Obviously soldiers dont "level up" in RL on the spot but one could surmise that they do Veteran up from mission to mission though from what your telling me there is no way to create a chained mission scenario into a Campaign which is a tragedy for a game like this.

 

I have yet to fully finish a Combat mission - i tend to watch little details and then restart it to monitor different reactions -type guy. I would say at the very least they could put a Medals screen in place at missions end, as surely you would agree outstanding soldiers are given metal merit even after a partial day encounter. Obviously they are not given it in one day due to real world politics but i dont think anyone is that much of a stickler.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Titanius Peck

[landser]

2 hours ago, Titanius Peck said:

 

 What do you mean "not for me"?

 

In the sales profession they call this a takeaway close. The goal of course is to generate a sale as the prospective buyer proves it IS for him or her, and don't tell me what I cannot have

I'll go against the grain and suggest that engine 4 has a few improvements that affect the AI, but to say it is better is a matter of degree.

The main points of the engine 4 upgrade are:

-- Added hulldown command
-- Improved infantry spacing
-- Added ability to peek around corners
-- F/O kill stats now displayed
-- Added screen edge pan toggle
-- AI Area Fire Orders (The AI can now be scripted to use area fire)
-- Added AI facing order
-- Added AI withdrawal order.

I believe there is now a different (better?) reaction to artillery as well. But these are more about commands, facing and spacing. Not a better AI in the sense that might be normally assumed, that is AI performing better, whatever that might mean. It's down to each player if that constitutes better AI, but for me it's very minor at best. So much so that I would call upgrading to engine 4 from engine 3 as non-essential. And honestly it's the F/O kills count that I like. The other stuff doesn't really make much difference to me, though the spacing is welcomed at least from an aesthetic point of view, and in the case of the peak around corners maybe a step back.

I may be missing other AI improvements but that's what I am aware of

[Ultradave]

2 hours ago, Titanius Peck said:

3 hours ago, IanL said:

t is not. The game supports re skinning of the UI and the models but it does not support changing the AI behaviour and the properties of armour or weapons.

Ahh a bummer.

Well, with the exception, and this may not be what you are looking for, that you CAN create a scenario, with AI actions, triggers, and objectives for both sides. If you browse the scenario depot at A Few Good Men, you may see that some are H2H only (this means most likely that the creator did NOT include any enemy AI so it requires two humans), or one side or the other only, or best. If "only" then only the other side has AI, if "Best" it may mean that the best side only has minimal AI coding if you wanted to switch around. These things are strictly up to the scenario designer to determine. Some scenarios in the game are listed similarly. Part of the reason also can be that it just doesn't make a very interesting scenario from one side compared to the other. But yes, you can't change the "physics" of the game.

You can also create an entire campaign, with losses carried over, reinforcements, and with theoretically any number of scenarios. It's a lot of work, but there are campaigns included with the game, and there a quite a few user created ones. To create a historical campaign takes map building, which can be quite time consuming to get accurate, for historical actions, and programming the AI for each campaign scenario (H2H campaigns are not possible). You could do an easier campaign by making use of Quick Battle maps that already exist and selecting some to use to string scenarios together. Still not quick and dirty but it takes some of the work out.

Your questions about medals, leveling up, gaining experience, promotions, etc....those aren't in the game and it's highly unlikely they ever will be. For good or bad, that's how it is, so you have to decide if that's more important to you than all the other parts of the game that are there. That's strictly a matter of taste, so we can't decide for you. Personally, I don't miss it. The game really portrays a level above that, unlike ARMA, where you are at man level. You just don't get that involved with what one particular individual is doing in the course of a scenario or even a campaign. There ARE one or two scenarios where it is important to keep a particular leader alive, but those are by far the exception. In one case I believe it was recreating a mission from a movie? (can't have the movie star get killed, would ruin the movie )

Dave

[Glubokii Boy]

Imho these AI changes are actually pretty significant...especially the AI areafire ..

With V.4 the AI may actually rely on some decent indirect supporting fire...ON TIME...AND ON TARGET !

An other benefit with the areafire command is that the AI direct fire supporting weapons are likely to play a bigger part...be that machineguns or assultguns...or what ever...

With skillful mission design these new commands will make quite a difference

The withdraw and face commands for example will allow for better AI use of armour and other vehichles...

[benpark]

One thing that the CM and ARMA games share is a great editor (besides both deriving gameplay from real-world factors).

You can't do any AI code scripting in CM, but you have a solid set of tools in the CM editor that can be adjusted to create some decent behaviors (some mentioned above).

It's also quite a bit easier to make maps in CM.

[Erwin]

3 hours ago, Titanius Peck said:

Obviously soldiers dont "level up" in RL on the spot but one could surmise that they do Veteran up from mission to mission though from what your telling me there is no way to create a chained mission scenario into a Campaign which is a tragedy for a game like this.

However, there is no reason why campaigns should not be taking place over a period of many months (in CM1 we could create campaigns that covered the years 1941-1945) and one can assume there were many "less exciting" battles in between the most critical battles depicted in the campaign that explain why units have gained experience between missions.

[Vacillator]

15 hours ago, Titanius Peck said:

Greetings, long time lurker and Demo tryer. This game intrigues me yet i can never commit to the Buy button as its pretty pricey relatively speaking.

A big hello to you too. 

Yes it's a bit pricey but as others have said well worth it, if it's your 'thing'.  I tried the RT demo, played one battle (Monster Mash) and bought the game the same or next day.  It was definitely 'for me'.  Since then I've added BN and FI (so far) so enough said.

What you say about gore mods reminded me of when I got Silent Hunter 3 quite a few years back.  I had to have a mod to show the correct Kriegsmarine flag, and in looking for it came across the Grey Wolves mod, which was immense and more like a new, far better game.  The flag was not important in comparison.

Anyway, in summary press the Buy button if what others have said hasn't put you off. 

[Titanius Peck]

Thanks all I do appreciate all your feedback.  Definitely gonna grab one of these because I do think its cream of the crop for this genre -Graviteam being another really good one when i have a really high level of patience. 

Quickly it does say in the advertisement for Operation Red Thunder:

• Expansive simulation of "soft factors" such as Morale, Experience, and Leadership

I wonder what they mean by "Expansive?

So im guess  all the titles pretty much are up to the same Engine standard and it basically comes down to the preferred them such as WWII East or Western front or else modern day Afghani. I like all war theatres but probably gonna go with the latest which i think is fire and Rubble? Flame throwing sounds nice. I really like combat terrain that in undulating (cliffs, valleys, crevices good areas for over head ambush) as well as of course (my Arma specialty) building fighting (using windows etc) -what recommendations would be the proper title for that?

Edited October 31, 2020 by Titanius Peck

[Erwin]

4 minutes ago, Titanius Peck said:

fire and Rubble

This is a module for CMRT.  You have to buy the base game and then the desired modules.  Some titles have extra "packs" and IIRC you may have to pay for one of the updates.  Not 100% sure though.

[Titanius Peck]

No offense but this store site is not very well set up -for instance i cant find Fire and Rubble when clicking on the base game Red Thunder game and if i click Upgrades it only offers up a $10.00 to upgrade to to engine 4.0. No mention of Fire and Rubble under the Games tab -what gives? So if i buy Red Thunder is it already at v 4.0?

 

Edit: Also using the Search button nothing comes up for Fire and Rubble or any derivative of that name

Edited October 31, 2020 by Titanius Peck

[Field Oggy]

23 minutes ago, Titanius Peck said:

No offense but this store site is not very well set up -for instance i cant find Fire and Rubble when clicking on the base game Red Thunder game and if i click Upgrades it only offers up a $10.00 to upgrade to to engine 4.0. No mention of Fire and Rubble under the Games tab -what gives? So if i buy Red Thunder is it already at v 4.0?

 

Edit: Also using the Search button nothing comes up for Fire and Rubble or any derivative of that name

It hasn't been released yet.

 

[Titanius Peck]

LOL- well ok there it is ^^^^

My mistake

[Gkenny]

Hello fellow arma player, there's quite a few of us around here - CM can be a great resource for creating arma scenarios and giving a bigger picture to how combat plays out at the slightly larger tactical scale (albeit scaled down a bit for arma - depending on how big the community is).  My friends and I have converted several CM scenarios or have been inspired by them for many of our missions for a few communities now. 

13 hours ago, Titanius Peck said:

Again im a lifelong Operation Flashpoint to now Arma 3 modder and my team is on the cusp of a major AI pathfinding (building fighting) release. This game looks to have a realy really nice RTS military foundation but feels abit empty in the personality dept. Arma is also a sandbox and alls we do is create our own scenarios in the editor but the editor is extremely robust and your relly only limited by your ability to code SQF and your imagination.

 

I am also utilizing a custom HC based AI (developed by a guy who goes by Pizzadox) in my scenarios, and was curious about what your AI project is? 

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Gkenny

[Titanius Peck]

1 hour ago, Gkenny said:

and was curious about what your AI project is? 

Well let me clarify -i have my own project which enhances disparities between AI skill levels by class; institutes AI camouflages values by things like being surrounded by foliage, being inside, even just being in shadow; adds robust civilian banter as well as features radio voices for all Spec ops/Snipers; plays out specific evasive animations for Spec Ops; allows vehicles to unload on buildings where enemies are merely suspected; AI will shoot RPGs from inside houses and probably abit more ive forgotten as feature creep kicked in years ago. I started this mod because i was creating a mission in an African nation featuring American Tier Operators invading a drug dealing Militia hideout and realized the "high level spec ops" were getting decimated everytime by low skill AK bearing banditos -because Arma fails to properly calibrate skill level in any meaningful way.

 

Now onto "The Project" -let me be clear -i am but a bit player in this mod. 'The Building AI mod' -which i wont name as its still under wraps but let me assure you its a game changer. Ever notice how lame Arma AI are att maneuvering in buildings - always taking some extremely limited, extremely linear pathway that is prebaked into the building model? How the AI always use the exact same slow tac walk pace and often just lie down facing a wall having literally zero understanding of the tactical uses of both windows and doors? How about a mod that completely reinvents their AI maneuvering so that they know exactly where they are going with real purpose? How about an AI that will knowingly use  advantageous interior positions depending on both known enemies as well as perceived possible direction of attack? That can clear these houses as well as defend them without ghosting thru walls anymore or misorienting their aim away from an imminent threat..? That will use their rifle butts to smash window glass to better prepare a shot and know how to "work a window" for firing?

 

I cant say much more but I think you get the picture

Edited October 31, 2020 by Titanius Peck

[Gkenny]

Sounds interesting, send me a link when its released - i'll be sure to check it out.

[Ultradave]

On 10/30/2020 at 8:23 PM, Titanius Peck said:

No offense but this store site is not very well set up -for instance i cant find Fire and Rubble when clicking on the base game Red Thunder game and if i click Upgrades it only offers up a $10.00 to upgrade to to engine 4.0. No mention of Fire and Rubble under the Games tab -what gives? So if i buy Red Thunder is it already at v 4.0?

 

Edit: Also using the Search button nothing comes up for Fire and Rubble or any derivative of that name

Fire and Rubble is not yet released. It's in Beta testing/development. Red Thunder is there which is the base Eastern Front game, and Fire and Rubble will be an add on to that, with more scenarios and campaigns, more unit types.

On the Battlefront web site, on the top right select the Games menu, select Red Thunder off of that, presto - there's the CMRT Base Game. Not sure where you ended up, but that will get you to Red Thunder, if that's your choice. 

Your other question about hilly terrain and city fighting...  Fortress Italy has LOTS of hilly terrain, and there is a slew of content with both the add ons, Gustav Line, and Rome to Victory, which add even more mountainous terrain, snow, more units, more nationalities, lots more scenarios and campaigns. There's a lot of content there. There is some heavy town fighting, but nothing like what will be in Fire and Rubble with fighting in Berlin.  Same path for Fortress Italy, except there you will see a bunch of options for just the base game or bundles with one or both of the DLCs.

Pick one. You'll probably get addicted, and then by the time you've collected them all, you'll have all the kinds of fighting you want.

Advice given to most like yourself who are wondering which to get is to pick the one of the theater that is most interesting to you, and that's what you'll have fun with. Saying that, I wasn't much interested in Italy at first but Fortress Italy and the add ons made me a convert. Interesting terrain, long time span of operations covered, and now with 2 DLCs, loads of content. 

If Normandy is your thing, the full package there has probably the most content per $ spent (might be a tie with Shock Force there if you have everything for both). D-Day, breakout, Market Garden, the addition of Commonwealth forces. Just tons of content. 

They all have a large number of user created content as well, and each has a Quick Battle generator, with unique maps to the title, terrain conditions, pick your forces, plus the scenario editor to create your own based on that particular title/theater. 

Dave

Edited November 1, 2020 by Ultradave