Do satchel charges ever go wrong?

[John1966]

First time I've ever seen this.

Engineers with a satchel charge and I give them the Blast command to remove some tank obstacles.

When I expect the traditional controlled explosion, there is a HUGE bang. Much bigger than you normally get with a satchel charge. Looked exactly like an anti-tank mine explosion. Dirt thrown high in the air.

It was such a big explosion that I feared mass casualties.

Four were lightly wounded. Walking wounded. The rest, fine.

Satchel charge gone and tank obstacles remained.

Anyone seen that before?

[Freyberg]

I've never tried to destroy a tank obstacle with engineers, but the satchel charges do make a big bang when they go through other obstacles. I have occasionally had charges fail to clear an obstacle, but it always been either because it was oddly positioned and the engineers went the wrong way (such as at the corner of a wall), or there was something else about it that was odd, such as a stone wall flush with the wall of a house.

[John1966]

But have you ever seen engineers take casualties from their own satchel charge? That's a new one for me.

[Freyberg]

49 minutes ago, John1966 said:

But have you ever seen engineers take casualties from their own satchel charge? That's a new one for me.

No - I've never seen that. Could they in fact have triggered a mine...? Or an IED if it's a modern title.

 

[Warts 'n' all]

Tank obstacles cannot be destroyed by satchel charges in game. So that part of what you are seeing is right. The only time I've suffered casualties when blasting is when the obstacle was set amongst mines, which of course weren't uncovered until the bang. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

10 hours ago, Freyberg said:

Or an IED if it's a modern title.

That was my first thought too.....And now I'm off to test the concept of booby-trapped buildings (I can get the IEDs inside, but only in the centre of each structure).

[John1966]

13 hours ago, Freyberg said:

No - I've never seen that. Could they in fact have triggered a mine...? Or an IED if it's a modern title.

 

 

2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

That was my first thought too.....And now I'm off to test the concept of booby-trapped buildings (I can get the IEDs inside, but only in the centre of each structure).

WWII (CMBN)

Yes, setting off an AT mine occurred to me too. It was on a road and there'd been AT mines elsewhere in the scenario. It certainly looked like an AT mine explosion (and they're quite distinctive).

But...

a) Who'd put an AT mine under an AT obstacle?

b) There was no red mine sign afterwards.

c) I thought only tanks could set one off.

Now, I suppose that perhaps satchel charges can set off AT mines. But I've never read that anywhere (and certainly never seen it). In fact I was reading a post just yesterday about it turned out (after testing) it was really hard to clear mines with munitions in the game.

And I suppose that it could be that are mines set off by explosions might not leave a red warning sign.

Because, when you think about it, it'd be a pretty rare occurrence in-game (unless we start doing it deliberately).

Which is why I raised it. I wondered if anyone had seen it before. But I don't think it's in the manual.

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by John1966

[Erwin]

Satchel charges never hurt friendlies (unless that was changed in some update), so it was definitely something else that blew up.

[Sandokan]

I think demo charges can set off AT mines. It happened to me in "School of the hard knocks". The result was a huge crater and a KIA and a WIA among the engineers. Maybe there was't a warning sign after the explosion because there weren't other mines. But this is just my guessing.

[John1966]

44 minutes ago, Sandokan said:

The result was a huge crater and a KIA and a WIA among the engineers. Maybe there was't a warning sign after the explosion because there weren't other mines.

I must admit that by the size of the explosion I was surprised there were only four lightly wounded.

[George MC]

I've booby trapped obstacles (barbed wire) with AT mines in scenarios. Engineers come along - try to blow the wire and whole thing goes 'boom'! Sometimes it takes out a few engineers, not often though, nor will it reliably take out all the mines.

[Warts 'n' all]

The first time it happened to me I turned the air blue. But, it taught me a hard lesson. It is better to have a two man scout team blown up, than a three or four man breach team blown up. In the meantime, never trust men from north of the border dressed in yellow.

[John1966]

Well I've learned a thing here (although I'm still not sure why no mine warning sign appears after).

But I have to say that boobytrapping AT obstacles with AT mines to wound a few engineers seems a waste of a perfectly good AT mine.

Sticking and anti-tank device under an impassable anti-tank barrier means the one thing you're guaranteed to do is to not get a tank with it.

[George MC]

Not anti-tank. Wire. 
 

you can’t blow AT obstacles with engineers in CM but you can blow wire. Two ways of getting through wire. Blow by engineers or run over with vehicle. 
 

Whilst physical damage might be light it also introduces uncertainty about not the players mind. Might be wary next time in blowing wire. 

Edited October 11, 2020 by George MC

[John1966]

4 minutes ago, George MC said:

Not anti-tank. Wire. 

In which case you might get a tank if they drive over it.

But if you're using the mine as a boobytrap to injure engineers, it's still a bit of a waste on an AT mine. Surely anti-personnel minds are better used for that?

[Sgt Joch]

I tend to use “mixed mines”.......

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, John1966 said:

But if you're using the mine as a boobytrap to injure engineers, it's still a bit of a waste on an AT mine. Surely anti-personnel minds are better used for that?

Probably depends on if we are talking about Quick Battle / PBEM gameplay or scenario design.  In a QB you are allocated a certain amount of points to purchase your TOE.  So using points to purchase mines and wire and then placing mines under the wire might not be economical.  However in scenario design the designer does not have a purchase point system and doesn't have to worry about wasted points.  Instead, he has to worry about EVERYTHING else.          

[George MC]

What @MOS:96B2Psaid

[Sgt.Squarehead]

5 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Instead, he has to worry about EVERYTHING else.     

Well put. 

[BletchleyGeek]

On 10/11/2020 at 6:55 AM, George MC said:

I've booby trapped obstacles (barbed wire) with AT mines in scenarios. Engineers come along - try to blow the wire and whole thing goes 'boom'! Sometimes it takes out a few engineers, not often though, nor will it reliably take out all the mines.

That is sneaky! I will write that down as an idea for future games.

I have had opponents playing defender in QBs buying wire, and I don't think they regretted it. If you don't get engineers or tanks you will have your attack channeled into a KZ.

In terms of cost effectiveness, you could get a Panther instead and it could get stuck on a fence or a bridge without firing one shot. Wire doesn't get stuck (but can be breached or avoided).

[George MC]

12 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

That is sneaky! I will write that down as an idea for future games.

I have had opponents playing defender in QBs buying wire, and I don't think they regretted it. If you don't get engineers or tanks you will have your attack channeled into a KZ.

In terms of cost effectiveness, you could get a Panther instead and it could get stuck on a fence or a bridge without firing one shot. Wire doesn't get stuck (but can be breached or avoided).

Not tried it in a QB, bus as said used it in a few scenarios (not saying which ones...).

As an aside I've also started using (in some case) a victory objective around the area where the mines are (can be marked as 'known to player' or 'unknown') as either gives the player fair warning there are mines, and b/ as you can't count mines and other obstacles as victory conditions at least I can have the area they are in count.

[slysniper]

Yes George, it appears you shocked a newer player once more.

I remember the first time I hit one of them traps set up by you also. it was like, what the heck just happened.

It was only after replaying the battle did I figure out what had happened. it was a wonderful dirty little trick .