Fire missions?

[markshot]

I spent all evening in the editor understanding under what circumstances various officers can call in fire missions.

But I still have questions:

Do experience level impact accuracy or delivery time?

Does caliber impact accuracy or delivery time?

Does number indirect by an officer in 50M impact accuracy or delivery time versus the comms net?

Does the number of hops across the comms net impact accuracy or delivery time?  I would think the battalion commander might be minimal to call in.  The maximum might be one platoon in another battalion calling in company mortars of another battalion.

I think at one someone had done a study of these issues.

Thanks.

[MOS:96B2P]

18 hours ago, markshot said:

I spent all evening in the editor understanding under what circumstances various officers can call in fire missions.

But I still have questions:

Do experience level impact accuracy or delivery time?

Does caliber impact accuracy or delivery time?

Does number indirect by an officer in 50M impact accuracy or delivery time versus the comms net?

Does the number of hops across the comms net impact accuracy or delivery time?  I would think the battalion commander might be minimal to call in.  The maximum might be one platoon in another battalion calling in company mortars of another battalion.

I think at one someone had done a study of these issues.

Thanks.

Below is a link to a similar thread you might find interesting.  

 

 

Below are some general notes on artillery:

To fire indirect on map mortars must be within close visual C2 (12A/S) of their COC or within voice C2 (6A/S) of any authorized HQ,

     XO, FO team or within 2A/S of a radio equipped vehicle. (Off map mortars always have their COC & C2) 

A requesting HQ, FO, & some XO teams do not need a radio, COC or C2 to make a request for arty (field telephone abstraction).

Rank determines ability (authority) to access arty (that doesn’t require an FO).          

As long as the CO is alive a HQ can always request and adjust artillery even without a radio or C2. 

Some XOs can call in artillery and mortars.  This includes tank platoon XOs.  The tank platoon XO is normally in Tank #1.   

Only off map artillery/mortars have delay option & have it the entire mission.  On map never has it (including during pre-planned setup). 

When an arty/mortar mission is delayed the UI continues to display the delay time even after fire is adjusted making it seem the

    adjusted fire will take longer than it actually will. 

Off map arty/mortar ammo count shows total available rounds & of that total x amount may be fired as smoke or precision.  

Preplanned fires can be plotted anywhere on the map and do not require TRPs.   

FFE times, in the support panel, are rounded to the nearest minute. This can make elite, crack & vet. appear to fire at the same time.   

In WWII titles there is no difference in the artillery call times between a backpack radio, a command vehicle radio, a Bn. and a Plt. HQ.  

Command vehicles only improve arty support response time in CMBS.  (Did not test this for CMSF2)

Experience is the only soft factor of arty/mortars (on&off map) that effect FFE times & accuracy.    

In WWII titles personnel airburst rounds must be requested during preplanned bombardment or in range of a TRP to work.

In CMFB a (VT) equipped asset can fire personnel airburst rounds anytime without a TRP.  

A vehicle radio with a mortar team Section HQ gets quicker FFE times than relaying messages through the Mortar Platoon HQ. 

If an on map mortar is stuck in spotting (never fires) it probably only has WP rounds left which can only be fired as a Smoke mission. 

Generally the closer the arty/mortar is to the target the more accurate it is.      

[markshot]

Thanks, very much MOS!

[Bulletpoint]

@MOS:96B2Pdo you know anything about the "matchup level" and what it actually does in the game? You'll see various little symbols on the artillery assets - a green dot, a yellow triangle.. and I guess this is supposed to mean if the asset is battalion level, regimental, divisional.. but I don't see any difference in actual call times or rank needed to request it.

Of course, bigger assets usually need longer time, but there seems to be no relation to the matchup level. Sometimes a green dot level battery and a yellow triangle level will have the same call times, as far as I can see.

[markshot]

I thought these icons were an indication of who could call.  (just by observation using the scenario editor)

Like a red triangle seems to need an FO, and is denied to an officer.

Like officers cannot call in very large caliber stuff or naval guns.

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, markshot said:

I thought these icons were an indication of who could call.  (just by observation using the scenario editor)

Like a red triangle seems to need an FO, and is denied to an officer.

Like officers cannot call in very large caliber stuff or naval guns.

It just seems there are several categories, not just FO or not FO.

[Bufo]

You might also find this useful:

https://community.battlefront.com/topic/135066-artillery-tables/

[markshot]

Bufo,

Thank you.  I have taken screens of them to review later.

[MOS:96B2P]

13 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

@MOS:96B2Pdo you know anything about the "matchup level" and what it actually does in the game? You'll see various little symbols on the artillery assets - a green dot, a yellow triangle.. and I guess this is supposed to mean if the asset is battalion level, regimental, divisional.. but I don't see any difference in actual call times or rank needed to request it.

Of course, bigger assets usually need longer time, but there seems to be no relation to the matchup level. Sometimes a green dot level battery and a yellow triangle level will have the same call times, as far as I can see.

The matchup rating is on page 73 on the 4.0 Game Engine manual.  Below, in italics, is a copy.  At the bottom are my notes. 

Matchup - in the upper right hand corner is a symbol representing how well the Spotter and Support Asset are matched for each other. There are five states, color coded as follows: Excellent (green circle), Good (green triangle), average (yellow triangle), poor (orange triangle), and bad (red cross) . The better the match the more efficient and effective the results will be.    

NOTES: The color code seems to be standard for all titles but not the symbol shape.  In CMFB & CMBN the shape is always a circle.  Light green, dark green, yellow, orange & red.  CMBS used the shape and triangles as described in the manual. 

I just look at the color and ignore the shape of the symbol.  The shapes might be included to assist people who are color blind? 

Much more than the matchup rating I mostly just look at the call time on the support panel. 

 

[John1966]

Something I've noticed in the last two scenarios I've played:

On map arty called in. Has ammo, nothing apparently stopping it. In some cases it's already carried out successful fire missions. Get the two two green lines from spotter and mortar after after pressing "confirm".

It never fires. Not even a spotting round.

Not certain but I think I never got the "fire mission confirmed" radio message.

What's going on? Is there something I'm missing or is there a bug? Only recently noticed it.

[Bulletpoint]

9 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

The matchup rating is on page 73 on the 4.0 Game Engine manual.  Below, in italics, is a copy.  At the bottom are my notes. 

Matchup - in the upper right hand corner is a symbol representing how well the Spotter and Support Asset are matched for each other. There are five states, color coded as follows: Excellent (green circle), Good (green triangle), average (yellow triangle), poor (orange triangle), and bad (red cross) . The better the match the more efficient and effective the results will be.    

Thanks, but I did read the manual. I still don't understand the underlined parts...

[Bufo]

9 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

NOTES: The color code seems to be standard for all titles but not the symbol shape.  In CMFB & CMBN the shape is always a circle.  Light green, dark green, yellow, orange & red.  CMBS used the shape and triangles as described in the manual. 

I just look at the color and ignore the shape of the symbol.  The shapes might be included to assist people who are color blind? 

I still cannot tell a difference between the green and yellow triangle. Never knew it could come in two colors, always thought its only one 

[Heirloom_Tomato]

5 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Thanks, but I did read the manual. I still don't understand the underlined parts...

I will try to explain it a little bit differently then using an example from my non military day job. 

Last fall we did a major renovation to one of our barns and used some equipment from the Netherlands. Our farm was only the second farm in North America to use this equipment and the very first installation for our local dealer. Naturally there were many questions about the correct way to install things. We were given the direct line of the technical expert at the company but the seven hour time delay, spotty cell service and slight language barrier made calls direct from the barn difficult; ie the RED connection. Information was able to flow, yet most often resulted in confusion at one end or the other but progess was possible. 

Phone calls made from the house provided a more stable connection but the other time and language barriers still existed; consider this the ORANGE connection.

Next we tried a video conference call from the local suppliers office with all the install guys, myself, the salesman and company tech guy. We could see a complete example setup in their office, and figure out a few other things by talking and looking over plans together. It was time consuming, still some language issues but once again progress was made. Consider this to be the YELLOW connection. 

Email with pictures also yielded great results. No languages challenges, clear example of the issue, usually a quick response time with great answers. This would be similar to the LIGHT GREEN connection.

About halfway through the install, the owner and their main communications man flew from the Netherlands to our farm to check progress. Now with a face to face meeting, both parties looking at the same problem, quick, detailed and accurate solutions were discussed. Future problems were presented, debated and solutions found. Real progress was made. Consider this the DARK GREEN dot.

In game, a DARK GREEN dot would be similar to the FO coming from the artillery regiment whose guns your using. They guys know each other, trained together, speak the same slang, can hear the panic in each others voices and know how to make things happen. A RED dot is an American rifle company Captian calling in fire support from a French Canadian artillery regiment. While this is an over simplification, the dots represent the amount of friction, static, confusion and miscommunication that occurs between the units. 

Dark green: on time, on target, great results.

Red: the shells will come. Eventually. But they might not be very accurate. 

[Bulletpoint]

19 minutes ago, Heirloom_Tomato said:

In game, a DARK GREEN dot would be similar to the FO coming from the artillery regiment whose guns your using. They guys know each other, trained together, speak the same slang, can hear the panic in each others voices and know how to make things happen. A RED dot is an American rifle company Captian calling in fire support from a French Canadian artillery regiment. While this is an over simplification, the dots represent the amount of friction, static, confusion and miscommunication that occurs between the units. 

Dark green: on time, on target, great results.

Red: the shells will come. Eventually. But they might not be very accurate. 

Thanks for replying, but the thing I don't understand is how this stuff actually works in the game. I don't see any difference between calling for support from a platoon commander and from a battalion commander or from a FO (apart from some assets needing a FO). The same assets have the same rating and take the same time to arrive, no matter whom I click on before I bring up the support panel.

And there seems to be no tangible relation between rating and call times/accuracy in the game. Is the artillery matchup rating some kind of feature they wanted to implement but that was cut? Or am I overlooking something?

Edited September 30, 2020 by Bulletpoint

[markshot]

When you are on the receiving end, you have the satisfaction of getting pasted by trained professionals as opposed to some  geek who played CM as a kid. 

[Bulletpoint]

2 minutes ago, markshot said:

When you are on the receiving end, you have the satisfaction of getting pasted by trained professionals as opposed to some  geek who played CM as a kid. 

?

[markshot]

Just a joke.

[mjkerner]

There are colored dots? Kidding, but I’m with Bulletpoint. I check through my FO’s and HQ’s for LOS and quickest arrival time . That’s the extent of my arty procedure.

Edited September 30, 2020 by mjkerner

[Erwin]

As everyone says, it is mush more useful to examine the arrival times.  The colored dots are not that useful.  They give a very vague indication.  Might be worth using that UI real estate for some other purpose?

[Sgt Joch]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

Thanks for replying, but the thing I don't understand is how this stuff actually works in the game. I don't see any difference between calling for support from a platoon commander and from a battalion commander or from a FO (apart from some assets needing a FO). The same assets have the same rating and take the same time to arrive, no matter whom I click on before I bring up the support panel.

And there seems to be no tangible relation between rating and call times/accuracy in the game. Is the artillery matchup rating some kind of feature they wanted to implement but that was cut? Or am I overlooking something?

Hi,  the time delay which is shown is an average wait time, depending on the matchup level and HQ type, it may be a lot longer than shown and sometimes faster. For example, if you call in artillery with a platoon HQ, the receiving, preparing and spotting phase may easily be up to 5 minutes slower than the delay shown before you reach FFE and you may notice the end result from the artillery strike may not be as accurate or as effective as you hoped. With a veteran FO with a excellent matchup level, you may get to FFE faster than you expected. There is a randomness built in which you will notice if you pay attention to it in game.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Sgt Joch

[Bulletpoint]

Ok I just did some testing just to give some examples of what I'm talking about.

Using German artillery:

• Mortars of 81mm and 120mm have same matchup rating: green dot. But one takes 7 minutes to call in, the other 120mm. Why the diffence?
   
• When using a platoon HQ to call in arty, I get shown the same matchup ratings and call times as when using a battalion commander. Why doesn't the battalion commander get a better matchup and faster call times?

So, does the matchup rating icon tell me any information that I don't get directly from the displayed call time?

 

[Bulletpoint]

1 minute ago, Sgt Joch said:

For example, if you call in artillery with a platoon HQ, the receiving, preparing and spotting phase may easily be up to 5 minutes slower than the delay shown before you reach FFE and you may notice the end result from the artillery strike may not be as accurate or as effective as you hoped. With a veteran FO with a excellent matchup level, you may get to FFE faster than you expected.

Interesting, but let's not bring FO's into it, because they clearly get faster call times across the board. Are you saying that even though I get shown the same call time for a platoon commander and a battalion commander, in actual use the battalion commander will get shells on target faster, all else being equal (experience, motivation etc)?

[Bulletpoint]

Just tested this, and using a 120mm mortar (stated call time 9 min), battalion HQ and platoon HQ both got their first spotting round at 7 min. Then it's just about whether they spot the rounds before calling for FFE.

[Sgt Joch]

I am not sure why you ask questions if you then dispute the answers...

Just ran a quick test, CMFB, battalion and platoon HQ, regs, calling 105 mm matchup level is green. estimated time delay is 12 minutes for both, battalion HQ had rounds falling on the target in 12 mins and platoon in 14 mins.

If you keep running your test multiple times you will see there is randomness. A test is also different from a scenario.

[MikeyD]

The problem with talking generally about this topic is  answers vary widely depending on whose calling in what. Americans calling in artillery in CMBN are very different from Syrians in CMSF2, or Russians in CMRT, or Russians in CMBS, or British in CMFI. Call in times on some equipment is so absurdly long its only useful for preliminary bombardments, other stuff call in can be as short a 2-3 minutes. Some artillery has a wide dispersion pattern, some a tight dispersion pattern (I've seen battleship hvy artillery strike the same crater over and over) It also varies depending on what difficulty level you're playing at, whether your artillery assets are integral elements in a TO&E structure or separate purchases, and even whether you've got the battalion commander on the map or you left him out.