Concerns before buying

[RMM]

3 hours ago, John1966 said:

Yes, curiously armoured vehicles are more intimidated by tanks than infantry appear to be.

On the other hand, maybe that makes sense. Infantry at least can hope they've not been seen or there's something more important to shoot at.

That behaviour makes sense for lightly armoured vehicles,  but I wouldn't think that infantry would be similarly spooked the same just because a tank appears somewhere. This is more in regards to having one right ontop of or adjacent to you. 

Edited September 21, 2020 by RMM

[John1966]

1 hour ago, RMM said:

That behaviour makes sense for lightly armoured vehicles

When I got that Panther with infantry, I actually had a Sherman stalking it. But the crew were rattled. They got behind the Panther and fired one shot. Even got a penetration. What did they do? Finish it off? (It was short range, they were unlucky not to get the kill with the first hit) No, they popped smoke and reversed. *sigh* Then the infantry in the building next to the Panther (who'd just taken multiple casualties from the Panther's MA), KO'd with two grenades.

Go figure.

[RMM]

4 minutes ago, John1966 said:

When I got that Panther with infantry, I actually had a Sherman stalking it. But the crew were rattled. They got behind the Panther and fired one shot. Even got a penetration. What did they do? Finish it off? (It was short range, they were unlucky not to get the kill with the first hit) No, they popped smoke and reversed. *sigh* Then the infantry in the building next to the Panther (who'd just taken multiple casualties from the Panther's MA), KO'd with two grenades.

Go figure.

Makes sense in regards to the Sherman crew. Despite many historical notes, people actually didn't like the Sherman. It was actually regarded as a fire death trap, particularly when up against something like a Panther. The rule of thumb is that you needed at least three Shermans to take out a Panther, and at the end of it, you'd be thankful to still have one Sherman. However, particularly if the infantry just took casualties from the MA, that doesn't ring very true.

[John1966]

It occurs to me that in RL, the best you're liable to do with a grenade is immobilise it. Blow a track off. (In ASL that would be the "Defensive Fire Phase method")

To get a kill, you'd need to be shoving grenades through vision ports or hatches. (In ASL that would be the "Close Combat Phase method")

But the current engine can't really model the latter.

So I assume (as someone has already said) that it's abstracted to account for that plus specialist anti-tank devices, grenade bundles etc.

[RMM]

Just now, John1966 said:

It occurs to me that in RL, the best you're liable to do with a grenade is immobilise it. Blow a track off. (In ASL that would be the "Defensive Fire Phase method")

To get a kill, you'd need to be shoving grenades through vision ports or hatches. (In ASL that would be the "Close Combat Phase method")

But the current engine can't really model the latter.

So I assume (as someone has already said) that it's abstracted to account for that plus specialist anti-tank devices, grenade bundles etc.

Yeh, fair enough, but it sounds like the balance could do with some tweaking in favour of the AFV

[John1966]

11 minutes ago, RMM said:

Makes sense in regards to the Sherman crew.

I'm not so sure. Yes, no-one would want to be in a Sherman when the tank could go up with a shot from an anti-tank gun you haven't even seen. But when the threat is right in front of you and vulnerable because it's pointed the wrong way, I'd think your safest bet would be to shoot it again.

I'd also note that in RL, the Panther couldn't have even rotated its turret in the narrow street but I don't think CM models that.

Edited September 21, 2020 by John1966

[RMM]

3 minutes ago, John1966 said:

I'm not so sure. Yes, no-one would want to be in a Sherman when the tank could go up with a shot from an anti-tank gun you haven't even seen. But when the threat is right in front of you and vulnerable because it's pointed the wrong way, I'd think you're safest bet would be to shoot it again.

I'd also note that in RL, the Panther couldn't have even rotated its turret in the narrow street but I don't think CM models that.

Yeh, true 'nuff

[danfrodo]

This thread was about whether to get CMBN, and none of this changes the answer -- YES.  This is all quibbling about details and overlooking the big picture.  Infantry should run away when they see tanks and be gunned down by machine guns?  or stay under best available cover?  We could argue this into the next century yet the reality is that basically everyone here plays CMBN and loves it so this is very much a small detail.

[Sgt Joch]

I am reminded of a RL story. A few days after D-Day, German forces were counterattacking in the Canadian sector. At dusk, two Panthers approached a village. Crouched on the edge of town was sergeant J.L .Lapointe with a PIAT. One Panther went ahead while the other provided cover...

sgt. Lapointe coolly waited until the tank passed, then took it out with a PIAT shot to the rear. He then machine gunned the crew as they tried to escape. The second tank, having witnessed the event, proceeded to shell the village for a few hours before withdrawing. All this time Sgt. Lapointe remained hidden, waiting for a second kill...

Never underestimate a determined infantryman.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Sgt Joch

[RMM]

1 hour ago, danfrodo said:

This thread was about whether to get CMBN, and none of this changes the answer -- YES.  This is all quibbling about details and overlooking the big picture.  Infantry should run away when they see tanks and be gunned down by machine guns?  or stay under best available cover?  We could argue this into the next century yet the reality is that basically everyone here plays CMBN and loves it so this is very much a small detail.

Oh, I've gone ahead with the purchase

[MikeyD]

The thing about Sherman being a fire death trap,  it wasn't so bad compared to other vehicles. PzIV and Panther would immediately burn like Roman candles when holed. The Russians grew to appreciate how a holed Sherman tended to not cook off its ammo like a bomb, like their T34s would, killing anyone standing nearby. 

A handy rule of thumb in CM gameplay is 'Don't do anything in the game you wouldn't want to do personally in real life', whether its infantry charging a mg nest across open ground or driving your tank into an occupied town without infantry support.

[RMM]

2 hours ago, MikeyD said:

The thing about Sherman being a fire death trap,  it wasn't so bad compared to other vehicles. PzIV and Panther would immediately burn like Roman candles when holed. The Russians grew to appreciate how a holed Sherman tended to not cook off its ammo like a bomb, like their T34s would, killing anyone standing nearby. 

A handy rule of thumb in CM gameplay is 'Don't do anything in the game you wouldn't want to do personally in real life', whether its infantry charging a mg nest across open ground or driving your tank into an occupied town without infantry support.

That's an interesting addition. I have not been aware of such a reputation for the PzIV and V. The one for Sherman I've heard in numerous documentaries and interviews over the years.

It's definitely a feather in the  cap for the game that real life advise can be applied to it, but I would also include in that attacking tanks with infantry unless they're of a higher calibre and in an urban setting or in possession of afore-mentioned, late-war anti-tank weapons.  

[Bozowans]

I've always had trouble close assaulting enemy vehicles. Infantry doesn't seem at all overpowered to me. They often miss their grenade throws entirely or the grenades explode in the air too early. They usually at least immobilize the target though.

I just had a game of Shock Force 2 where my insurgents threw at least 7 grenades at a Stryker and still failed to knock it out. The Stryker then blew everyone to bits with its grenade launcher.

Sometimes my infantry will do nothing but sit there next to the enemy vehicle for long periods even though they have plenty of grenades, and sometimes they will seem to pin themselves down with their own grenade explosions before getting machine gunned by the enemy vehicle.

I have certainly seen infantry knock out vehicles with one or two grenade throws, but it's not very reliable. I find that I often have to swarm the vehicle with a lot of guys from multiple directions to reliably knock it out, and they will usually fail if they have any kind of suppression at all.

[MOS:96B2P]

19 hours ago, Lethaface said:

Infantry close attacking armor with grenades are a bit abstracted, as they don't model individual AT-grenades / grenade bundles / etc whatever regular infantry might be carrying; all are displayed as 'grenades'. 

This!!  They are not taking out tanks with grenades (even though the game visually shows a grenade) instead it is grenade bundles or some type of close assault ad hoc AT weapon etc.   

[George MC]

Close assaulting tanks has been discussed at length previously.

 

[MikeyD]

Back to the original topic, there's no need for 'concerns' before purchasing any of the titles. They're all great fun with replayability that other games would envy. And the game engine is mature. Most of the 'bugs' mentioned on the boards could be considered differences of opinion rather than real flaws. Watch too many Rambo movies and it skews your perception of close combat . Newbies tend to bring their old shooter-game experiences to the game so they need to unlearn a few old bad habits before they catch on. But hey, if you were perfect at it right out of the box where would the fun be?

[John1966]

Absolutely the best game I've ever played. Spent more time on it than every other game I've played put together.

[Vacillator]

57 minutes ago, John1966 said:

Spent more time on it than every other game I've played put together.

I can't say that yet as I only turned up in the CM world fairly recently, but I am happy to agree with:

58 minutes ago, John1966 said:

Absolutely the best game I've ever played.

John, are we the often mentioned fanboyz ?

[RMM]

23 hours ago, Bozowans said:

I've always had trouble close assaulting enemy vehicles. Infantry doesn't seem at all overpowered to me. They often miss their grenade throws entirely or the grenades explode in the air too early. They usually at least immobilize the target though.

I just had a game of Shock Force 2 where my insurgents threw at least 7 grenades at a Stryker and still failed to knock it out. The Stryker then blew everyone to bits with its grenade launcher.

Sometimes my infantry will do nothing but sit there next to the enemy vehicle for long periods even though they have plenty of grenades, and sometimes they will seem to pin themselves down with their own grenade explosions before getting machine gunned by the enemy vehicle.

I have certainly seen infantry knock out vehicles with one or two grenade throws, but it's not very reliable. I find that I often have to swarm the vehicle with a lot of guys from multiple directions to reliably knock it out, and they will usually fail if they have any kind of suppression at all.

That sounds pretty true to life