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Marines Out of Tank Warfare!


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How difficult to kill the 20 Javelin inf teams that can be hidden anywhere over a 2.5Km front vs every MBT? 

One has to remember that economically and logistically one can build about 31 Jav systems for every M1A1.  Then one can transport about 3,500 Jav's for the same weight as a MBT.

I love armor as much as any other armor fan.  But, just as with bows and arrows and horse cavalry, everything gets superseded at some point.  We can debate as to when.

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A little case study from the Big Igloo: Canadian Armed Forces wanted to replace Leo 1s with mobile gun systems in the 2000s. Leo 1s were losing their relevance, and the LAV family was proving pop

Now MOD might be merely trimming off a few tanks - and looking to provide private security for Quatar footie games to make a few quid on the side https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54126146 Also

Done with a booming voice-over, explosions and mech parts flying through the air... THE TIME IS NOW FOR CM: BATTLETECH.  🙂🙃🙂

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2 hours ago, HUSKER2142 said:

I wanted to ask for a long time, I know that in US Army and USMC machineguns are used  disintegrating belt. In Russian army, non-disintegrating. What do you do with a machinegun belt after shooting at range ? 

We would collect up all the brass and links and put them back in the ammo crates they came from. The supply sergeant would then return them to the issuing ordinance unit for disposal. 

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17 hours ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

We also need to factor in the training and logistical cost of the 62 soldiers in those 31 Javelin teams versus the 4 in the Abrams.

That's a good question.  Anyone know how many hours does it take to train an M1A1 tank crew and a Jav team?

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17 hours ago, Erwin said:

I love armor as much as any other armor fan.  But, just as with bows and arrows and horse cavalry, everything gets superseded at some point.  We can debate as to when.

Tanks are just the modern incarnation of siege engines. Before petrol, man and horse had to tow protected towers, wheeled fortifications and protected rams. They can also fulfill a cavalry role, by firing on the move.

The Javelin is a superb ATGM, but it cannot accomplish these tasks. Since both sieges and maneuver warfare have proved devastatingly costly, in the last century: their implement is on audit. But if they do occur, people will need the right tool for the job.

The tank will eventually be obsolete, no doubt. Once humanity discovers a fundamentally new form of moving fortifications and large weapons.

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On 10/22/2020 at 11:26 PM, Erwin said:

How difficult to kill the 20 Javelin inf teams that can be hidden anywhere over a 2.5Km front vs every MBT? 

One has to remember that economically and logistically one can build about 31 Jav systems for every M1A1.  Then one can transport about 3,500 Jav's for the same weight as a MBT.

I love armor as much as any other armor fan.  But, just as with bows and arrows and horse cavalry, everything gets superseded at some point.  We can debate as to when.

I can tell you i wouldnt want to be the guy having to launch a javelin at an mbt that can fire a 120mm+ airburst he shell, has several thermal optics equally if not more powerfull than my own. I might kill the tank but the he grenade will kill me and my buddies. And if the tank has an APS i cant even expect a kill. And since tanks arent used alone and if the one im shooting at doesnt get me another one probably will.

As for economics youre not really making fair comparisons. Every MBT will cost far more to initially acuire but the ammunition is far cheaper. Now take in mind youre not always shooting at MBTs so your cost effectiveness for missiles goes way down.

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On 10/23/2020 at 3:58 PM, Wicky said:

I wonder if hypersonic tech will filter down to smaller / lower range tactical AT weapons.

As some interesting tech being developed that will likely make carriers keep a wide berth of threats.

Well, the M829A4 (and previous variants) have a muzzle velocity of over 5,000 fps. That puts these rounds squarely at the threshold of the hypersonic regime. (Mach 5+) 

(Sigh: okay, it takes ~1658m/s to reach Mach 5. (Mach is dependent mainly upon Air Temperature: it slows as the temperature drops. Atmospherically, the temperature stabilizes ~35,000 feet. So, Mach gradually reduces in speed from Sea Level up to 35,000' and then stays pretty constant on up from there. Sea level, standard day, Mach 1 ~ 335m/s.) 

Where was I? Ah, yes, the M829A4 round and hypersonics. Given the various M829 penetrator weights, they have various muzzle velocities. (The Rheinmetall Rh-120 gun comes in L44 and L55 lengths. The longer one, with a tungsten penetrator (lighter than the US depleted uranium ones), has a significantly higher muzzle velocity. It's on the order of 1750 m/s...or more.) 

The M829A4 is ~M4.9, or so. Again, dependent upon atmospheric temperature.

The energies with which these ~10kg weapons impact their targets gives a good idea of the power of hypersonics.)

(I lost track of my parentheses, so here's some more to make sure I close this out. )

)

)

:)

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19 hours ago, holoween said:

i wouldnt want to be the guy having to launch a javelin at an mbt that can fire a 120mm+ airburst he shell, has several thermal optics equally if not more powerfull than my own. I might kill the tank but the he grenade will kill me and my buddies. And if the tank has an APS i cant even expect a kill. And since tanks arent used alone and if the one im shooting at doesnt get me another one probably will.

Sadly, casualties are to be expected.  However, (assuming CM does reflect reality) the modern CM2 games clearly demoinstrate how deadly even a few ATGM's are to an armored force.  And when we start having 5-10 ATGM's per enemy tank, it would be a massacre. 

A nation can afford to lose and replace a few dozen ATGM units.  It can't afford to lose a few dozen expensive and hard to transport and replace MBT's in a single short engagement. 

This seems to be the direction that the Brits are thinking about in as well as the USMC.

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21 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Sadly, casualties are to be expected.  However, (assuming CM does reflect reality) the modern CM2 games clearly demoinstrate how deadly even a few ATGM's are to an armored force.  And when we start having 5-10 ATGM's per enemy tank, it would be a massacre. 

A nation can afford to lose and replace a few dozen ATGM units.  It can't afford to lose a few dozen expensive and hard to transport and replace MBT's in a single short engagement. 

This seems to be the direction that the Brits are thinking about in as well as the USMC.

In CMSF2 a jevelin is a sure kill if launched. All other ATGMs are far less likely to KO a NATO MBT.

With APS youre looking at fairly low killchances even for javelins.

 

If we were living in a world without aps but with javelins id agree with you.

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2 hours ago, holoween said:

In CMSF2 a jevelin is a sure kill if launched.

It's agreed that we may be getting a skewed impression of modern warfare and the efficacy of Javelins and other ATGM's in the CM games - cos, well... they are games.  That comes from all the emphasis that CM is the most accurate and realistic sim since white bread sort of propaganda, and I know that I have often "drank the cool-aid" on that.  (But, then have been able to expurge it.)   :P

 

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