The British Forces Campaign - Highland Games

[Erwin]

On 10/5/2020 at 10:10 PM, Heirloom_Tomato said:

TIP FOR SCENARIO #4, NOT A SPOILER:  before you start the battle choose real time instead of turn based.  Battle #4 is a stealth scouting mission and I was playing it thinking "this would be way better if I could control things in real time"

Surprised anyone had difficulty with #4.    It seemed rather easy and I played WEGO (Elite).    Was able to run around with frequent 5 second PAUSES and no recon unit ever got seen.    I assumed that the Syrians don't have night vision while the Brits do.

However, the next mission (using the same map) seems harder as one only has 35 minutes(!) to run around conquering everything and it seems like suddenly the Syrians are able to spot the Brits much more easily.   But, am only halfway thru #4, so we'll see.

[SgtHatred]

Has this update been applied to the Steam version yet?

[Erwin]

Am enjoying this Scottish Campaign.  (I recall when I was in UK that everything English was "English", and if Scottish/Irish/Welsh etc it was: "British" lol.) 

Am playing all missions WEGO/Elite.  It's a good campaign for new players to attempt as so far (as of mission 7) have found that the challenges are not that hard if one uses good /thoughtful tactics/strategy and one can pretty easily win with a Total or Major Victory and very few if any friendly casualties.

So far, I think I've won two missions with zero friendly casualties, and most with a handful with only two Scimitar losses total.  (I keep forgetting that the Scimitars have virtually no armor, (even less than the Warriors) are not tanks, and can be taken out if you look at them funny.)

The largest losses were in Mission 1 where I forgot that the Brits should not be handled like the US forces.  The Brit IFV and Recon vehicles have only 7.62mm, low quantities of 30mm (45 HE) and a low rate of fire (maybe 5-6/minute).  So, it takes a lot more effort to suppress an enemy or destroy a building with direct fire.  The Brits really need their 150mm to flatten everything that contains enemy troops.

Missions 2 and 3 were a lot of fun - you had to think, and use good tactics. 

Mission 4 was easy and not challenging.  You pretty safely can run around doing recon in the dark and the Syrians can't see you.

Mission 5 seemed hard initially with a short timeframe, but again it turned out very easy to overcome the Syrian airport defenders. 

Mission 6 was ridiculously easy if you invested the time to find good hull-down positions.  After that all I did was press the GO button and did nothing else for half the gametime.  Then you get aircraft reinforcement and wonder "why"?  Then a more serious Syrian force arrived and you think ok, this is going to be tricky with no Javelins and the weak Warrior firepower.  But soon after you get Challengers and it's all over for the Syrians.

Mission 7 am playing right now, and that is tougher.  Hard to figure out a role for the friendly Uncons.  Seemed that the moment they move they ran into insurgents who usually blew em away.  MOS handled Uncons much better in his COUP scenario.

Overall, am enjoying this fun campaign even tho' it's on the "less-challenging" spectrum (so far) and one that (so far) doesn't feature any "tricks" that seem unfair or that force you to replay a mission.  So far, each mission starts with 100% troops and ammo, so perhaps force and ammo conservation is not an issue one has to deal with.

 

[Erwin]

BTW:  When you look at the Warrior defense panel in the UI, it looks very weakly armored (as are all the Brit vehicles other than the Challenger).  But, in the campaign, have seen at least a couple Warriors survive ATGM hits with minimal damage - IIRC less damage than a Challenger getting hit.  

Am wondering if the UI panel is inaccurate and needs updating, or...  the Warrior in the game has been given a defense bonus.  Since BF is working for the Brit military, they may have worried about the morale effect on Brit troops if the Warrior was portrayed as the steel coffin that one would expect from its UI defense panel.  On the other hand the defense panels seem to show that the Bradley is worse if hit with large caliber or ATGM, so...

[danfrodo]

I read that it has aluminum 'armor' + applique.  So maybe the added protection helped.  My warriors have been pretty vulnerable to RPGs and ATGMs if I am not careful.  So it sounds similar to Bradley as a base unit, maybe difference is in the applique.  I bet there are some folks on this forum that know exactly what's what on this.

[danfrodo]

yeah, I agree w Erwin that difficulty is not too bad.  Fun campaign, not super hard like some other campaigns -- although some WW2 campaigns are hard because they were failures in real life -- Pieper's real life mission was never gonna succeed and the campaign reflects why. 

[Erwin]

FWIW Mission 8 is very tough.  I managed to lose all the trapped men and nearly all the QRF.  But I think that much of that was due to strange pathing issues that are still present.  Teams still not entering obvious doors and running around into streets and getting shot up.  Also, the trapped Scottish guys and native/Syrian "Special Forces" guys literally ran out of the building as soon as they were attacked and got decimated in the first few turns!

My suspicion is that CM2 engine doesn't handle dense urban maps very well - leading to strange behavior.  

Re the scenario itself, the map is one of the best urban maps I've seen - not sure if it is original or borrowed from the huge Ramada map.   Either way, it's great.   But almost all the native militia which is supposed to help out are useless.  It seemed that as soon as any militia/uncon unit was moved, there was an enemy uncon ambush ready for it.  Only one or two reinforcing militia formations were useful as they linked up with the Scots and I used em as scouts or flank guards.  But, MOS designed much better uncon forces and actions in his COUP scenario.

But, man using Warriors and Scimitars in dense urban areas is awful.  They don't have the firepower that the US vehicles do, and have such a low rate of fire for the 30mm (and little HE ammo).  The 7.62 MG's are like pop guns compared to the 50 cal. that nearly all US vehicles have as standard.   So, these weapon systems are not good vs buildings.  There is no way to demolish enough buildings to get at the uncon enemy.  You'd think the Scots would have demo charges when entering an urban arena.  If this scenario had twice as much time maybe it would be better - but there's too much time pressure to be careful.  Maybe the playtesters got too used to it and forgot what it's like to play for the first time.

There's a discussion about how awful it is to replay scenarios.  But, this one I could see replaying as there are so many strategy/tactical decisions that would change the game challenges (eg: which road to take) that I could see enjoying a replay it.  However, unless there are extra AI plans one knows where and when the reinforcements arrive (and what they are) and so that would spoil some of the surprises and make things much easier.

Mission 9 (convoy protection) is easy.  I think I broke the system as I moved very quickly to the exit zone and all convoys got there just as the main Syrian counterattack started(!)  It's one of those scenarios where you end up being deluged with enemy uncon attacks and end up killing hundreds of pickup trucks.  No finesse required and boring.  Could have done with some more playtesting.

 

[danfrodo]

It's interesting that we have mixed experiences on what's easy & hard.  The crazy city fight, Mission#8, went pretty smoothly for me, though I only got a minor V because I didn't destroy enough bad guys.  I used the militia to screen a path for my reinforcements past the mosque along the left side relative to the incoming brit forces.  No vehicle losses, very low dismount casualties.  I, however, lost a scimitar & a warrior in the convoy battle whereas you breezed right through it. 

[Ultradave]

They do get tougher as you get closer to Damascus. I found the alternate path where you don't go to Damascus to be somewhat easier. 

Dave

[Erwin]

In Mission 8 I found it hard to find a mission for most of the friendly uncons.  The moment many (not all) of them were moved they ran into ambushes and got slaughtered - I thought what's the point?   The uncons have no night vision so tend to stumble around without seeing much anyway (until they get shot up).  I think their "best" use is  either as expendable/suicidal recon for the more valuable Scots, or perhaps more reasonably/humanely - guarding the flanks and rear of the Scots - making sure roads and crossroads are kept clear.  

The Victory conditions give more point to the enemy Uncons for the Mosques than to the Scots - which is weird.  Does that mean one should enter the Mosques?  There is actually no reason to do anything with the Mosques as they do not provide any useful vantage points or any tactical use at all as they are way too far from the action.

I think that the Scots need to use their night vision to recon and spot enemy ambushes.  But, that takes time and this scenario doesn't give enuff time to be careful (altho' it does go into overtime which I wish one knew that from the briefing).  Not sure what use the mortars were either.

And when one does does know where the enemy is the firepower of the Warriors and Scimitars is inadequate to kill efficiently, or make holes in walls.  One would think that the Brit 30mm would be effective.  But, the low rate of fire, probably dictated by the mere few dozen 30mm HE rounds available, means that these vehicles are poor infantry support systems when facing infantry in towns.  (In dense urban settings due to CM2's LOS/LOF problems it's rare that one can get more than one or two vehicles simultaneously firing at the same location.)  Urban scenarios desperately need satchel charges and/or breach kits.  

This is a situation where it would be fun to use the BMP3 with its 100mm gun or BTR 4 with its fast firing 30mm.  In another post it was interesting to speculate that since urban warfare is so costly, maybe its time to bring back the "Brumbar/Sturmtiger" type weapons.  Very heavily armored, able to withstand multiple RPG/ATGM hits, and equipped with a big demolition weapon (150mm+) - but does not require any of the sophisticated and expensive stuff found on a modern MBT.

The 400m range of Brit inf is great.  But, that is only useful when one has 400m LOS.

The other problem as mentioned b4 is that the trapped Scots and Uncon "Special Forces" ran out into the street when attacked - it looked like the Special Forces were doing a desperate assault on a neighboring building - but they got shot to pieces.  The Scots did similar and eventually all were killed and one captured!  He then spent 30 minutes of the game still alive with his hands up and spotting enemy uncon units for me, and never disappeared as POW units are supposed to.  I thought this must be a bug.  Again I wonder if the UK MOD has made some requests to make the Brit vehicles more survivable and troops less likely to surrender/vanish so they can be rescued(??)  I do know that when your government paymasters make requests to make something more "politically correct" or to represent their dreams and aspirations for their equipment rather than reality, it's hard to refuse.

Lost two Warriors, but nearly all Scot inf.  Got a Draw(!)  Hope the new missions keep starting with 100% fresh forces or I'll have to replay Mission 8 just to keep enough alive.

Nonetheless, Mission 8 is one of those rare scenarios that is worth replaying as one has so many options.

In Mission 9 I did lose two Scimitars.  One ran over a mine.  Then I got bored halfway thru and started running a Scimitar around the map taking care of scattered enemies just for the hell of it - until it ran into a RPG or RCL.  But as you can tell, I hate convoy missions.

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by Erwin

[danfrodo]

I suspect real life soldiers hate convoy missions also. 

I used the uncons to occupy the mosque to left of armored entry point.  They had some cover & elevation and from there pressed out small groups to patrol my proposed path.  I ended up being able to move my entire force mounted to within a block of the police station.  I suppose just mostly luck that I decided on that route.  The uncons have very little ammo and aren't much for fighting but they are excellent for getting bad guys to divulge location.

I am not persuaded that there's some "politically correct" conspiracy to make Brit forces more survivable in CM, whatever that means, but hey, maybe you can start one.  My Brits seem quite vulnerable so far.

[Boche]

One thing im severely disliking about this campaign is the time limits. I feel that adding atleast an extra 20 minutes to most missions would help but I always feel rushed

[Erwin]

22 hours ago, Boche said:

One thing im severely disliking about this campaign is the time limits. I feel that adding atleast an extra 20 minutes to most missions would help but I always feel rushed

+1   But, maybe the short time limits are due to the Missions being (mostly) easy for experienced players.

The 45 minute(?) airport recon mission in particular requires one to literally QUICK move all over the place to recon all the objectives - and the enemy did not seem to detect my units.  This could have been a much more challenging mission had the enemy been able to detect one more easily requiring one to HUNT or SLOW move to reach objectives (and exit) without being detected.

Same for the equally short airport assault scenario.

Ditto the Convoy mission.  After degrading all enemy PU trucks I got all convoy vehicles to the exit zone in one mad rush many minutes b4 the end assuming correctly that uncon inf forces were bad shots.  Only then I saw some more serious Syrian enemy appear in completely wrong ambush position.  BTW:  The forces in the exit zone just sat there and did not disappear like am used to seeing - until I CF'd.  Anyone else noticed that?  Not sure if forces in an exit zone can be fired at and damaged.  Am wondering if it's another bug(?).

The AI has not been programmed to do clever attacks in any of the Mission up to #10 which am playing now.  In all the enemy attack missions all one has to do is find good hull-down positions and wait and press GO repeatedly and watch the enemy rush carelessly into the Challengers' (or Javelin teams') sights.  

However, these items are good if one is less experienced and what makes this a good "learning" campaign for new players.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Erwin

[Sgt.Squarehead]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

BTW:  The forces in the exit zone just sat there and did not disappear like am used to seeing - until I CF'd.  Anyone else noticed that?  Not sure if forces in an exit zone can be fired at and damaged.  Am wondering if it's another bug(?).

That sounds like someone forgot to update the 'Terrain Objective' type in the editor.....CM:SF2 has fully functional exit zones.  Might want to report that one fella.

[Erwin]

Is there a specific place to report?  Usually mentioning it here gets noticed(?)

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Maybe ping @BFCElvis and/or @IanL.....Oh, hang on, I just did! 

[A Canadian Cat]

For this a better person to comment is @Heirloom_Tomato

[Heirloom_Tomato]

I will check it out.

[BFCElvis]

46 minutes ago, IanL said:

For this a better person to comment is @Heirloom_Tomato

I was poking around it today to see if I could figure it out. You are correct though, Ian.

[Erwin]

Mission 10 was fun.  One defends and attacks.  But as b4, the defense part vs AI attack is ludicrously simple.  No effort has been made to make the AI attack clever.  Enjoyed clearing the other objectives however.

Completed Highland Games Mission 11 and I think that's the end.  Killed between 5x and 10x enemy inf and vehicles as lost, but still suffered a major defeat - altho' not clear why as most missions one can easily get a Total Victory. 

Mission 11 was challenging and interesting.  But, bloody.  Features US and Brit inf.  A defensive scenario (ugh).  But, no good place to set-up (ie all objectives seem in LOS of enemy) and seemed like a suicide mission.  Lots a Javelin ammo, but not a single Jav launcher(!) and only one Challenger at start, so very poor AT capability.  Seemed an unbelievable premise.

I thought one would get at a squadron of Challengers as reinforcement but one only gets three and they didn't do well.  2 were killed almost immediately despite being I thought well-hidden with no LOS behind woods.  But, this mission demos an LOS issues with CM2 - how the AI can find a pixel-wide opening that a human cannot see and killed two Challengers b4 they had a chance to do anything.  (PS: Woulda been nice in all mission to have a better idea of what reinforcements are coming.)

What it taught me was that without Javelins the US and Brits even with Warrior IFV's are almost useless.  The Warriors rarely can kill with the first volley, and with their low rate of fire it often takes 2 minutes of firing to kill a single BMP.  Vs Tanks, Warriors' 30mm are useless.   Demonstrates how useful TOW missiles are on Bradleys (altho' no Bradleys in Mission 11).  

As for the Campaign as a whole it's hard to understand how some playtester didn't notice the lack of proper exit zone in the convoy mission.  Lots of other issues.  Not the campaign's fault that platoon HQ's can't call in arty or air.  But, in mission 11 and IIRC some other missions there are no Company HQ's, so if you lose your FO's, it takes a long time for an inf unit to call in anything. 

On the whole I felt like I was beta testing this campaign.  Could have done with more testing re timing and mission length especially.

Interested in other folks' comments.  Who else has completed Highland Games?

 

 

Edited October 18, 2020 by Erwin

[Ultradave]

"so if you lose your FO's, it takes a long time for an inf unit to call in anything. "

Real life. Probably several extra minutes.

Was Mission 11 the defensive setup with the big hospital on the right? I did fine on that one. Lost a handful of AFVs, but I don't recall losing any tanks and the tanks cleaned up the opposition. Most of my losses came from the enemy that appeared on the left in and between the buildings (almost on top of my own positions). 

Dave

Edited October 19, 2020 by Ultradave

[Erwin]

My Mission 11 had woods or an orchard on the right of the town near the friendly map edge.

I don't recall any "big hospital".  Maybe there is a branching storyline?    Anyone know how many missions there are supposed to be?

[Ultradave]

8 hours ago, Erwin said:

My Mission 11 had woods or an orchard on the right of the town near the friendly map edge.

I don't recall any "big hospital".  Maybe there is a branching storyline?    Anyone know how many missions there are supposed to be?

Ah, ok. Thinking of a different one. I don't remember that one specifically. Yes, there are two branches. In one, you head toward Damascus with the American forces, and in the other, you head south while American forces head to Damascus. You get to choose. I can't remember which scenario it is but you'll know when you get there. It depends on which objective map corner you choose to go to. VPs in that scenario only determine which path you are taking - you'll "win" both but the VPs will list one of them as a loss, and that determines the path. Best thing is to save at the beginning of that scenario somewhere so you can go back and take the other path later and play both parts of the campaign.

Dave

[Erwin]

Which scenario is the one from where the path divides?

[Ultradave]

I *think* it's #9 (I could be wrong about this number after the campaign was redone). The title is something like "US or alone?" or some variation of that, I think. There are two corner objectives. Head to your left to the far left corner and exit and you are going alone, headed south from Damascus, ending with a ridgeline assault. Head to the far right corner and exit and you are going to downtown Damascus with the US forces. The remaining scenarios on that branch then have combinations of US and UK forces. It sounds like you may have passed that point if you have done 11. 

Sorry I can't do better than that. I don't currently have SF2 installed at the moment - I needed to make room for several Fire and Rubble beta versions and was running out of HD space. @Heirloom_Tomato should be able to answer for sure. Hopefully he'll see this tag.

Dave