House rules for Tank/Infantry Cooperation?

[slippy]

Hi all

Something i have been unhappy with for some time is the interaction between Tanks and Infantry, especially in the WW2 titles. With the 'gods eye' view of the player its possible to have a single tank track halfway across the battlefield to help an infantry section, which seems highly unrealistic.

 

I have done a little digging around, and there are some quite good resources available (mainly from the British and American point of view). A good one here covers the Canadians at Operation Charnwood, the British would be following the same procedures.

https://scholars.wlu.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1266&context=cmh

So with that in mind i have tried to develop some house rules for player(s) to follow, it's a work in progress at the moment, and there are bound to be some gaps. I would be interested to hear any information/tips/suggestions or even experiences, for more modern titles, people may have in order to provide a better experience.

Whatever system used, has to be fairly easy and not too technical, so that it can be incorporated easily into gameplay. Here are my initial thoughts

 

Firstly, a general order of battle to follow from the outset, maybe based on a die roll, taking into consideration unit experience and training. This would 'set the tone' of the battle to come so to speak. Outcomes could be, for example

• No Cooperation - Plan agreed beforehand, does not change for whole battle, Tanks wary of built up areas woods etc       

•  Slight Cooperation - Original plan agreed beforehand, can meet up at a pre-arranged location for  change , Tanks still wary of built up areas

• Standard Cooperation - Original plan agreed beforehand, can change any time as long as both HQ units in same AS, can go in built up area, woods   

• Good Cooperation - Original plan agreed, major changes require both HQs, but any units can request assistance locally

• Great Cooperation - Original plan agreed, major changes can be instigated by any unit if required, as long as Tank units have comms between each other 

• Excellent Cooperation -  No plan, tanks assigned to Infantry to form small battlegroup, and act independently 

 

Secondly, where there is to be cooperation between infantry and tanks, then a set of conditions to follow, similar to this for Tanks, external request would be Infantry

 

again only some initial thoughts.

By way of explanation of where i am at the moment

• My knowledge of how British and Commonwealth, and US forces interacted is better than how German (limited) or Russian (non existent!), so any further suggestions appreciated, i understand German forces were more towards combined arms, but how did they actually interact on the battlefield
• From research it would appear that the telephones fitted on some allied tanks were not as often used as one may think, one report in Ian Dalglish's Epsom book, states one crew from a British Tank Brigade, whose sole purpose was Infantry support, never used the phone. As in the heat of battle no one could hear it and had never used it or practiced with it. 
• There are reports of Tank Commanders proceeding on foot to accompany Infantry so they can see precisely what action is required.
• I would therefore think that a tank should at least be unbuttoned, and the infantry (probably an HQ) should be on the same AS, and time allowed for plans to be discussed
• Radio links were sometimes not set up, or were ineffective, so no guarantee of having radio comms beyond own units

 

Thanks for any replies, my knowledge of modern systems is not great, so also interested to hear anything on that subject

 

 

regards

 

slippy

 

 

 

 

 

                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                     

     

[Bulletpoint]

A much simpler house rule could be: You can only move a tank to support infantry if the tank has a contact marker for the enemies it's going to shoot at.

Edited September 10, 2020 by Bulletpoint

[George MC]

38 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

A much simpler house rule could be: You can only move a tank to support infantry if the tank has a contact marker for the enemies it's going to shoot at.

I play that when I'm playing against the AI - my units can only engage enemy that they know are there so it forces me to ensure C2 is kept in good shape. And it's easy to implement.

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, slippy said:

Hi all

Something i have been unhappy with for some time is the interaction between Tanks and Infantry, especially in the WW2 titles. With the 'gods eye' view of the player its possible to have a single tank track halfway across the battlefield to help an infantry section, which seems highly unrealistic.

 

Below is a link to a thread about C2 house rules.  Its not just for tanks but I thought you might find it interesting and get some ideas.  There is a link in the thread to a two page PDF document with the rules.  

 

 

[Vacillator]

1 hour ago, George MC said:

I play that when I'm playing against the AI - my units can only engage enemy that they know are there so it forces me to ensure C2 is kept in good shape. And it's easy to implement.

Does it boil down to 'don't use area fire on 'possible contacts''?  If so I think it might not follow historical behaviour?  Still loving Villers Bocage by the way .

[George MC]

8 hours ago, Vacilllator said:

Does it boil down to 'don't use area fire on 'possible contacts''?  If so I think it might not follow historical behaviour?  Still loving Villers Bocage by the way .

Nope they can only area fire on enemy targets they know off - via shared or own info. They can still use speculative fire on locations if no enemy contact. 
Wittmann still in his ride?

[Vacillator]

1 hour ago, George MC said:

Wittmann still in his ride?

Yes George he's fine so far.  His Tiger and a second one are on the left flank (the old road).  Was happy with their progress, although I've just noticed a vehicle sound contact on the far left in addition to the many contacts coming out of Villers Bocage (some being contacts no longer ).  I re-positioned the other 4 Tigers at the start to deal with the armour which had already passed by.  Successfully done, but sadly at the cost of one Tiger due to some sneaky hiding amongst buildings. 

Great scenario (once again) and the map is excellent, I particularly like the level changes.  Thanks again.

Any more scenarios in the pipeline (he asks hopefully)?

[George MC]

6 minutes ago, Vacilllator said:

Yes George he's fine so far.  His Tiger and a second one are on the left flank (the old road).  Was happy with their progress, although I've just noticed a vehicle sound contact on the far left in addition to the many contacts coming out of Villers Bocage (some being contacts no longer ).  I re-positioned the other 4 Tigers at the start to deal with the armour which had already passed by.  Successfully done, but sadly at the cost of one Tiger due to some sneaky hiding amongst buildings. 

Great scenario (once again) and the map is excellent, I particularly like the level changes.  Thanks again.

Any more scenarios in the pipeline (he asks hopefully)?

He's fairing better in this alternate reality! Glad you like the map. Sweated this one using aerial images of the terrain to ensure suitable tree cover! Elevation changes were a challenge also.

Glad you are enjoying this as I hung off for ages in doing this as didn't feel I could recreate it in CM. So pleased it plays out as a scenario.

I've a load of CM stuff in the pipeline - so yes, soon  

[Vacillator]

1 hour ago, George MC said:

I've a load of CM stuff in the pipeline - so yes, soon  

Excellent, will look forward to it.  Forgive me for asking but is it for BN, RT, Fire and Rubble etc. or all of the above? 

[George MC]

50 minutes ago, Vacilllator said:

Excellent, will look forward to it.  Forgive me for asking but is it for BN, RT, Fire and Rubble etc. or all of the above? 

Eastern Front

[Vergeltungswaffe]

4 hours ago, George MC said:

Eastern Front

[slippy]

Thanks everyone, i am aware of Hard Cat rules, i probably should of mentioned as i use them and Frankos rules for Infantry. For me though there is still this gap when it comes to Armour/Infantry Cooperation.

I also use the rule that armour can only target enemies it has contact with, or enemies that a friendly unit has 'pointed out' (same action square, tracer, etc)

i am more looking for some rules on cooperation, and how messages would be passed realistically. I'll continue to work on my ruleset.

Thanks for replying

regards

slippy