Help Battlefront Out & Leave A Steam Review

[ZackTactical34]

Since Combat Mission has launched on Steam, many people have been thrilled with its arrival as well as the possibilities it offers, including improved MP support. However, it seems there is a group/segment bent on reducing their overall rank/score. One major negative review managed to garner 28 awards (not too subtle) . So, to give Battlefront a helping hand, everyone here needs to leave a positive review to help counteract those efforts.

[PIATpunk]

What improved mp support are you referring to?

[IICptMillerII]

3 hours ago, ZackTactical34 said:

However, it seems there is a group/segment bent on reducing their overall rank/score. One major negative review managed to garner 28 awards (not too subtle) . So, to give Battlefront a helping hand, everyone here needs to leave a positive review to help counteract those efforts.

Yup. Unfortunately there are a handful of mentally unstable/disturbed people out there who have literally dedicated their lives to trashing BFC and Combat Mission at every turn. The reasons vary, but most of it boils down to stupid people being mad that they were matter of factly told off instead of being coddled and treated specially. This disenfranchised mob tends to conglomerate, and you get the hate groups/groupthink you are seeing. 

This is one of the main reasons I was always against CM moving to Steam. Granted, my logic is not the most sound, and it is a personal opinion, but I just didn't want these people having another avenue to complain about the same old things. Now that CM is on Steam though, and the overhead is being taken care of by Slitherine, I do not think its a bad thing for BFC. The outrage mob will scream about the game the next few days, but it won't last. Give it a week or two and you'll start to see more sane opinions come forward as the dust settles. The misinformation, such as spotting being a diceroll, certainly annoys me in particular, but that's the internet for you. 

Its also important to point out that with CM published on Steam by Slitherine, there isn't anything to worry about. They will handle the community outreach on Steam as well as advertising. If, at the end of the day CM doesn't perform on Steam, then it won't be the fault of BFC, or even Slitherine for that matter. And we are a very long ways off from drawing any drastic conclusions like that. 

[Zveroboy1]

I had a quick look at the reviews on steam, there sure are a lot of angry nerds with a giant chip on their shoulder. Several reviews with less than an hour played, which means they had bought the game before and went through the hassle of registering their steam key just to leave a negative review. The thing is, in spite of it, the overall score was positive when I checked so that's quite good really.

[Glubokii Boy]

Hopefully the stready stream of Youtube videos will continue for a while yet...

Those videos ought to bring some possitive attention to the game atleast.

[gallycadet]

As the gentleman with the 30 award review. I just want to say thank you for belittling my intelligence, and assuming that I have no other goal in life but to trash BFC. My review was based on price, age, and toxic community/lack of support. Which this thread did such a great job of doing, (this thread even got mentioned in the comments of my review as an example of the toxicity in my review! Congratulations!). 

Why is it so hard for you all to accept an OPINION that in this day and age, the game is not worth $60, and has valid, numerous problems (which I'm hoping will still be addressed, but I don't hold my breath when it comes to great support here). 

Now, if you excuse me, I'll go back to playing CMSF2. If you keep watch for a week or two, you'll see I play this game quite a bit. I don't know why though, since I'm "mentally unstable/disturbed people out there who have literally dedicated their lives to trashing BFC " 

As for LOS not being a dice roll... fine, what the h*** is it then? Because I'm tired of hearing "well it's abstracted, and the method is a state secret punishable by death and you just need to accept that!" It's extremely crappy given this day and age, and the fact that there are numerous games, who have figured out a proper LOS system. Even the danged youtube videos admit problems with it. If you guys want to keep insisting it doesn't have numerous flaws, I'm more than happy to start making youtube videos pointing them out.

All I did was leave an opinion, which people are certainly allowed to do. Thank you gentleman for making it a personal attack. This is definitely going to get people to love you all.  

Edited September 2, 2020 by gallycadet

[gallycadet]

4 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

Yup. Unfortunately there are a handful of mentally unstable/disturbed people out there who have literally dedicated their lives to trashing BFC and Combat Mission at every turn. The reasons vary, but most of it boils down to stupid people being mad that they were matter of factly told off instead of being coddled and treated specially. This disenfranchised mob tends to conglomerate, and you get the hate groups/groupthink you are seeing. 

This is one of the main reasons I was always against CM moving to Steam. Granted, my logic is not the most sound, and it is a personal opinion, but I just didn't want these people having another avenue to complain about the same old things. Now that CM is on Steam though, and the overhead is being taken care of by Slitherine, I do not think its a bad thing for BFC. The outrage mob will scream about the game the next few days, but it won't last. Give it a week or two and you'll start to see more sane opinions come forward as the dust settles. The misinformation, such as spotting being a diceroll, certainly annoys me in particular, but that's the internet for you. 

Its also important to point out that with CM published on Steam by Slitherine, there isn't anything to worry about. They will handle the community outreach on Steam as well as advertising. If, at the end of the day CM doesn't perform on Steam, then it won't be the fault of BFC, or even Slitherine for that matter. And we are a very long ways off from drawing any drastic conclusions like that. 

1. It's almost like... people complain about.... the problems with a game engine? 

2. You're absolutely right. If a game doesn't sell. There is absolutely no fault at all with the developer. They just made the perfect little thing, and people just didn't appreciate it for what it was... I'm sure you're avid player of Daikanta right Cpt. Miller? This is like saying that Ford had nothing to do with why the Pinto didn't sell. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by gallycadet

[IICptMillerII]

Alright, here we go I suppose.

First off, the idea that BFC or CM claims to be perfect is not true. Further, pointing out that CM is not perfect means nothing. And despite my tongue in cheek title, I do not think CM is perfect. As I have repeated a few times in the past few weeks now, I spent a lot of my own time showing that new tactical AI behavior introduced in v4 was flawed. I made a YouTube video showing the flawed behavior, submitted reports to beta testers along with others I play the game with (I was not a beta tester at the time) and continued to post feedback on the behavior here on the forum. Then, a few months ago, I spent a decent amount of time testing and retesting the new behavior to make sure it worked correctly and was functioning properly. 
My point is, I am very aware of flaws in CM, and I have actively worked to mitigate/fix some of those flaws. BFC does listen, its just that many times people post something that they think is a bug when it is not. 

1 hour ago, gallycadet said:

As the gentleman with the 30 award review. I just want to say thank you for belittling my intelligence, and assuming that I have no other goal in life but to trash BFC. My review was based on price, age, and toxic community/lack of support. Which this thread did such a great job of doing,

I have no idea who you are, or that you were the person who posted that review on steam, so calling my first post a personal attack is laughable. But my response to that is simple, don't post stupid misinformed things and then complain that someone calls into question your intelligence. And it wasn't even a personal attack against you, it was literally just some dumb thing I remembered from a Steam review, not tied to a name at all. Seriously, relax.

1 hour ago, gallycadet said:

Why is it so hard for you all to accept an OPINION that in this day and age, the game is not worth $60, and has valid, numerous problems (which I'm hoping will still be addressed, but I don't hold my breath when it comes to great support here). 

The fact that you are taking this so personally is exactly what I was talking about. "These are just my opinions! But also, how dare you have opinions counter to my own!" k. Also, value is subjective. If the game is not worth $60 or whatever it is on sale for right now ($42?) then simply don't buy it at that price. If it is worth that amount of money to you, then buy it. 

1 hour ago, gallycadet said:

Now, if you excuse me, I'll go back to playing CMSF2. If you keep watch for a week or two, you'll see I play this game quite a bit. I don't know why though, since I'm "mentally unstable/disturbed people out there who have literally dedicated their lives to trashing BFC " 

Yikes. So let me get this straight. You claim to dislike many parts of the game, and its developers, and even its price now that it is on Steam and on sale for the first time in a while, but despite all this you are going to now play it for weeks? So you're going to voluntarily engage with something you dislike for an extended period of time. Why? Why not just stick to your opinion of "I do not like this" and move on to playing something that you actually like? Again, I did not call you personally mentally unstable, but engaging in something that you actively dislike isn't exactly healthy behavior. Well, that or its a kink, in which case you do you. 

1 hour ago, gallycadet said:

All I did was leave an opinion, which people are certainly allowed to do. Thank you gentleman for making it a personal attack. This is definitely going to get people to love you all.  

Again, I never mentioned you personally at all, so I don't understand why you are taking this personally. You could have posted that it was you who left that review and opened this up to actual discussion, but oh well. For what its worth, I am not trying to get anyone to love me here. I don't work for BFC, I just volunteer time to help out in what I can when I can to contribute to something I like, instead of engaging in things I don't like. 

And I have no idea what a Daikanta is. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by IICptMillerII

[SergeantSqook]

@gallycadetWell you've caused some amount of aggravation no doubt due to clearly having an axe to grind and getting it out there by having a review of pretty questionable information that you've put forward as objective fact, like:

"The engine isn't designed for modern combat, it was built for WW2" (engine was literally designed for modern combat, Shock Force was the initial release)

"LoS is dice rolls" (it isn't)

"It isn't equipped for MOUT combat because I have to micromanage and can't just cartwheel my men forwards to victory" (actually laughed to be frank with you)

"It's not fun to not be able to take losses" (It's a simulator, realism is the focus over fun. Not necessarily a poor reason to not recommend but should be stipulated because some people find realism fun)

"Play CMO/Armoured Brigade" (Neither of those are CM)

 

I will grant you the distressing lack of engineering vehicles (although engineers can make minefields safely passable)

 

[littlearvin]

56 minutes ago, gallycadet said:

As the gentleman with the 30 award review. I just want to say thank you for belittling my intelligence, and assuming that I have no other goal in life but to trash BFC. My review was based on price, age, and toxic community/lack of support. Which this thread did such a great job of doing, (this thread even got mentioned in the comments of my review as an example of the toxicity in my review! Congratulations!). 

Why is it so hard for you all to accept an OPINION that in this day and age, the game is not worth $60, and has valid, numerous problems (which I'm hoping will still be addressed, but I don't hold my breath when it comes to great support here). 

Now, if you excuse me, I'll go back to playing CMSF2. If you keep watch for a week or two, you'll see I play this game quite a bit. I don't know why though, since I'm "mentally unstable/disturbed people out there who have literally dedicated their lives to trashing BFC " 

As for LOS not being a dice roll... fine, what the h*** is it then? Because I'm tired of hearing "well it's abstracted, and the method is a state secret punishable by death and you just need to accept that!" It's extremely crappy given this day and age, and the fact that there are numerous games, who have figured out a proper LOS system. Even the danged youtube videos admit problems with it. If you guys want to keep insisting it doesn't have numerous flaws, I'm more than happy to start making youtube videos pointing them out.

All I did was leave an opinion, which people are certainly allowed to do. Thank you gentleman for making it a personal attack. This is definitely going to get people to love you all.  

"As a gentleman with apparently 30 award view(?)" you seem very arrogant & childish to respond like that.

Anyway, a lot of people do not get that CM is a simulator, not a game. And no it's not an excuse, let me explain it.

What you see on screen isn't what's happening in the simulator. There's a lot more going on than what's visible or known to the player, for example a bunch of soft factors such as "Experience, Morale, Leadership, and other elements operate at the individual soldier level and collectively transform how units behave",  these factors go way deeper than you think, you may have noticed that already. 
About the LOS system, sometimes it bugs out, but I only had that happening 2-3 times IIRC. But it's not broken.
Soldiers can either be occupied, sending information trough (C2 Link), Tired, In shock, stressed out or the other soldier/tank sits still & is well camouflaged.
The LOS also isn't a simple ray cast as in RTS traditional games. A forest tile with trees on it for example has some randomness to it, I think it should be obvious why that is, if not; It's to simulate bushes/leaves/grass where a unit can hide in & look trough leaves. Spotting abilities & experience take a big role here. Take into account that most units are well camouflaged & are sitting still. It's thus very difficult to spot units in it. Buildings are even more tricky, as their layout is always unknown(Spoiler: it's not 1 room). 

I hope this gives you some insight to what level CM actually simulates. And please, don't compare it to RTS games x). 

[IICptMillerII]

To @gallycadet's credit, he did edit his review to change his statement on LOS being based on a dice roll. Props where they are due. 

[Grey_Fox]

2 hours ago, gallycadet said:

As the gentleman with the 30 award review. I just want to say thank you for belittling my intelligence, and assuming that I have no other goal in life but to trash BFC. My review was based on price, age, and toxic community/lack of support. Which this thread did such a great job of doing, (this thread even got mentioned in the comments of my review as an example of the toxicity in my review! Congratulations!). 

Why is it so hard for you all to accept an OPINION that in this day and age, the game is not worth $60, and has valid, numerous problems (which I'm hoping will still be addressed, but I don't hold my breath when it comes to great support here). 

Now, if you excuse me, I'll go back to playing CMSF2. If you keep watch for a week or two, you'll see I play this game quite a bit. I don't know why though, since I'm "mentally unstable/disturbed people out there who have literally dedicated their lives to trashing BFC " 

As for LOS not being a dice roll... fine, what the h*** is it then? Because I'm tired of hearing "well it's abstracted, and the method is a state secret punishable by death and you just need to accept that!" It's extremely crappy given this day and age, and the fact that there are numerous games, who have figured out a proper LOS system. Even the danged youtube videos admit problems with it. If you guys want to keep insisting it doesn't have numerous flaws, I'm more than happy to start making youtube videos pointing them out.

All I did was leave an opinion, which people are certainly allowed to do. Thank you gentleman for making it a personal attack. This is definitely going to get people to love you all.  

Why would you leave a negative review of a game you regularly play? If the game frustrates you so much that you recommend others not buy it, why keep playing it?

The fact is, the game is good enough for you to play it, but has some limitation which aren't enough to make you stop playing it.

I never understand negative steam reviews saying "DO NOT PLAY THIS PIECE OF TRASH" by people who have amassed significant play time. They obviously got their money's worth, so it's good enough for them, but not good enough for anyone else?

Edited September 2, 2020 by Grey_Fox

[Vacillator]

Just a few of my opinions (and they are just opinions).

I don't own SF2 so my comments relate more to BN and RT.

Are they perfect, no.  Not many things in life are.  But none of the 'imperfections' stop me having a great time playing them.

Are they expensive?  At full price yes, but I would say they are well worth the money. The Steam price for SF2 is currently much lower.

Are they old?  Yes, but that makes no difference to me as I haven't found anything newer that's anywhere near as good.

Is the community toxic?  I have only been here since earlier this year but have never experienced toxicity from anyone, neither BFC or the wider community.  Quite the opposite in fact.

Those are my opinions.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Vacilllator
My poor typing skills

[Thewood1]

8 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

Unfortunately there are a handful of mentally unstable/disturbed people out there who have literally dedicated their lives to trashing BFC and Combat Mission at every turn. The reasons vary, but most of it boils down to stupid people being mad that they were matter of factly told off instead of being coddled and treated specially

Holy cow.  And this type of comment is exactly why BFC and its beta teams have such a poor reputation.  Exactly this.  Unfortunately, there was a period of time where any negative comment was virtually set upon by people on this forum.  And it was condoned by BFC though inaction.  Because of that, this forum became its own little insular world.  But the internet has a long memory.  And exposing BFC to the Steam masses gives those previously aggrieved a forum for revisiting past issues without BFC being able to control the narrative.   As soon as BFC made the Steam announcement, I knew what would happen on both sides.  But to see thjis kind of comment and general degradation of people who just don't happen to like the game, BFC, or maybe Steve, sure exposes the worst of this forum.  And this comment is worse than any I have seen on Steam...ever.

[BFCElvis]

5 hours ago, gallycadet said:

All I did was leave an opinion, which people are certainly allowed to do. 

You are absolutely 100% correct. The subjective opinions you included in your review are as valuable and valid as anyone else's opinions. 

I did almost reply to it yesterday because I took personal exception to something you said though. You said that no Battlefront employee had posted here in months. I am a full time Battlefront employee and I post here all the time. Steve, the co-founder, has been posting frequently. MikeyD works for Battlefront, he posts constantly. That isn't a matter of opinion. Ultimately I decided not to reply. 

[A Canadian Cat]

6 hours ago, gallycadet said:

As for LOS not being a dice roll... fine, what the h*** is it then? Because I'm tired of hearing "well it's abstracted, and the method is a state secret punishable by death and you just need to accept that!" It's extremely crappy given this day and age, and the fact that there are numerous games, who have figured out a proper LOS system. Even the danged youtube videos admit problems with it. If you guys want to keep insisting it doesn't have numerous flaws, I'm more than happy to start making youtube videos pointing them out.

I'm going to try to stay away from the personal attacks. If you perceive I have failed please forgive me and address my actual point and we can likely come to some kind of agreement on what are problems and what are things that you and others don't like but are in fact intended.

You claim there are numerous problems with LOS system. I am unaware that the system has a lot of serious problems. Honestly. I'll believe you if you believe me. I would like to know what you are referring to. I do understand and agree there are limitations to the system that we all would like to see improved. I also understand that this game treats things quite differently than many games and that is by design. I have lots of experience witnessing people simply not understanding that and being frustrated by that. Sometimes the two overlap and I can even understand that frustration.

Let me help identify which problems you see fall into which category and if we can possibly even find some bugs. If you are willing.

Since you don't give examples I think I'll need to ask you to do that before commenting further since otherwise I'm commenting on what I guess you think which is of course not at all productive. I can ask one question though when you say the LOS system what do you mean? Do you mean the way the line of sight is calculated given the terrain, do you mean the way the LOS tool works during the orders phase or are you referring to the way units spot enemy units?

[com-intern]

9 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

Yup. Unfortunately there are a handful of mentally unstable/disturbed people out there who have literally dedicated their lives to trashing BFC and Combat Mission at every turn. The reasons vary, but most of it boils down to stupid people being mad that they were matter of factly told off instead of being coddled and treated specially. This disenfranchised mob tends to conglomerate, and you get the hate groups/groupthink you are seeing. 

Yea this sort of post is absolutely ****ing whack.

Pro-tip: If you are going to lead with calling people who dislike the game mentally disturbed maybe you should stop posting here.

------

Like this is embarrassing to anyone who attempts to talk about the game in other venues. How do I go on Steam Discussion or Reddit or whatever and say "well they actually aren't huge snobs" when 3rd post literally calls them mentally unstable?


Especially if your label is Beta Tester you ought to be presenting yourself better since you are de-facto a representative of the game to many people.

Edited September 2, 2020 by com-intern
Edit for clarity

[Sgt Joch]

Personally I never put much stock in STEAM reviews since they always seem to be all over the map for any game. So far CMSF2 has mostly positive reviews which is really the best you could ask for.

[com-intern]

Yea the reviews have been quite good. The lowest it got that I saw was a 78% which is very respectable.

[Artkin]

God did someone seriously suggest Armored Brigade instead of Combat Mission? What are we 10 y.o. ?

[Grey_Fox]

16 minutes ago, com-intern said:

Yea this sort of post is absolutely ****ing whack.

Pro-tip: If you are going to lead with calling people who dislike the game mentally disturbed maybe you should stop posting here.

------

Like this is embarrassing to anyone who attempts to talk about the game in other venues. How do I go on Steam Discussion or Reddit or whatever and say "well they actually aren't huge snobs" when 3rd post literally calls them mentally unstable?


Especially if your label is Beta Tester you ought to be presenting yourself better since you are de-facto a representative of the game to many people.

It is pretty juvenile alright.

As I understand though, beta testers are usually unpaid volunteers and not representatives of a company.

I will say though that it's contradictory to say "game is bad" and recommend other not play it, and in the next breath say that you have played it for a significant amount of time in the past and will continue to do so in the future.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Grey_Fox

[com-intern]

They are unpaid volunteers but I'm describing the view point of people outside these forums. If you have the beta tester tag you are a de-facto representative regardless of whether Battlefront wants you to be or not.

[Artkin]

4 hours ago, Vacilllator said:

Just a few of my opinions (and they are just opinions).

I don't own SF2 so my comments relate more to BN and RT.

Are they perfect, no.  Not many things in life are.  But none of the 'imperfections' stop me having a great time playing them.

Are they expensive?  At full price yes, but I would say they are well worth the money. The Steam price for SF2 is currently much lower.

Are they old?  Yes, but that makes no difference to me as I haven't found anything newer that's anywhere near as good.

Is the community toxic?  I have only been here since earlier this year but have never experienced toxicity from anyone, neither BFC or the wider community.  Quite the opposite in fact.

Those are my opinions.

This isnt opinion - these points are facts. I've been here lurking for years. 

[com-intern]

---------

@gallycadet

Responding to some of your review's points.

1. Combat Mission compared to othe CMO/Armored Brigade:

You might disagree with me but I own both along with CM and wouldn't really consider them similar at all. Just from a scale perspective CM does not replace Armored Brigade or CMO and those games do not replace Combat Mission. Armored Brigade is really good at Brigade sized engagements, hence the name, CMO is often smaller scale but also doesn't do ground combat particularly well.

Essentially in either of those games you aren't going to be having a very interesting scenario involving a platoon of Mech. infantry whereas CM does. Graviteam Tactics is probably the closest, only?, competitor.


 

Quote

And regarding LOS: Fine, maybe it's not a dice roll, but it is not a true "what you see is what you get" LOS system, is abstracted to hell (and will never be explained to us lowly gamers), and has been done much better in more recent games.

The LOS system is fundamentally the same as any game out right now. Armored Brigade, Graviteam Tactics, I think CMO, Flashpoint Campaigns.

You have areas that your soldier can see and then each soldier who can see that area has a chance of spotting units within their vision. If you load up Armored Brigade right now, for example, they do this and explicitly give you the %chance to spot with the LOS tool.


 

Quote

There is no future. I strongly suspect the developers have moved onto focusing on military products

Fundamentally I don't see why this matters? I bought War in the East to play War in the East... Maybe I'm missing something here but I just don't see what this applies to.

 

Quote

The community is mildly toxic.

yep

 

Quote

The game engine is not well suited to the time period.

I'd disagree for CM:SF. Especially as so much of it based on relatively small unit actions. I do agree that CM:BS is hurt a bit by it and primarily the limitation of map size.

 

Quote

Here's a dirty little secret for you; there is no true line of sight. Line of site for everything is a dice roll. This is also why the engine doesn't have a true LOS tool like newer games such as CMO and Armored Brigade.

Specifically here CM does have a true LOS tool. Its the target command. It operates in the same was as the LOS tool in Armored Brigade except that it does not explicitly give you your %chance of spotting.

 

[Artkin]

I'd disagree for CM:SF. Especially as so much of it based on relatively small unit actions. I do agree that CM:BS is hurt a bit by it and primarily the limitation of map size.
 

Cmbs has javelins, drones, fricking active defense on vehicles.. I can go on and on.. the engine is capable enough. The engine is a non-issue. Just need more developers working on it!!