T90 vs T-72 TURMS-T FCS and thermals

[domfluff]

The T-90 and the TURMS-T are the top Syrian tanks available in CMSF.

On paper, which vehicle should have better spotting and FCS?

[domfluff]

On a related question - are there known figures for how far night vision can see?

Equally, do we know the range that troops will pick up sound contacts?

I'm not expecting firm answers to those, but some idea of ranges would be useful.

[MOS:96B2P]

2 hours ago, domfluff said:

Equally, do we know the range that troops will pick up sound contacts?  
I'm not expecting firm answers to those, but some idea of ranges would be useful.

I looked through my notes but there are so many variables it is difficult to find a general rule of thumb.  I did find the below, posted by @Vanir Ausf B in May 2018.  I paraphrased it.  Its just yet another variable.  

Posted 14 May 2018, CMGD, Small thing I noticed - hiding vehicles don't turn off engine sounds          

The manual says the Hiding vehicle will "keep a low noise profile". It's important to note that giving a vehicle a Hide command cuts the range at which the vehicle can be heard in half rather than reducing it to zero.

Also from @Josey Wales another variable. 

Troops with higher experience are able to spot enemy contacts sooner than less experienced troops.

I'm not sure if the above is just for confirmed contacts or also applies to tentative (sound) contacts.  

[domfluff]

Excellent, that's useful stuff to start with, thank you.

Currently in a Red vs Red PBEM, at midnight. The difference between no night vision, night vision and thermals is going to decide the game, I think.

[MOS:96B2P]

28 minutes ago, domfluff said:

Excellent, that's useful stuff to start with, thank you.

Currently in a Red vs Red PBEM, at midnight. The difference between no night vision, night vision and thermals is going to decide the game, I think.

Hmm, night fighting.  There is also this by @akd: 

Posted 29 May 2017 CMBS, Spotting devices 

Unfortunately both image intensification (night vision) sights and thermals sights are listed as "IR optics."  Units with thermals can see through regular smoke.  They are treated differently, but both displayed under the damage panel as "IR optics."  Easiest way to determine if the IR optics is night vision or thermal is to check LOS through artillery smoke (units with thermals will not have blocked LOS).

And this by @sburke

Posted October 17, 2015 CMBS   Area fire in night time

At night when you fire you can be seen from farther away.  It's a nasty trick you can play on the AI.  You sneak a few units close then open fire with distant units.  When the AI returns fire at your distant units they now are exposed to your close units.  You can see a firing enemy farther away than your actual visual spotting distance.

 

Good luck!! 

Edited August 18, 2020 by MOS:96B2P

[akd]

5 hours ago, domfluff said:

The T-90 and the TURMS-T are the top Syrian tanks available in CMSF.

On paper, which vehicle should have better spotting and FCS?

On paper, the TURMS-T system should be better because it is full hunter-killer system with thermal for tank commander.  For the gunner, both have 2nd Gen thermal sight.

Here is a video of T-90A gunner thermal working in Syria:

https://youtu.be/7-OpAj7zFis

Edited August 18, 2020 by akd

[MikeyD]

There's a large open map night battle scenario in the Marine module. I forget the name. Marine M1A1 HCs versus T90s. For fun I went into the editor and monkeyed with the Red AI plans. Slowed down the battle, gave T90 units overwatch protection while bounding to new positions, let the units sit in place  long enough for them to start acquiring distant targets. The scenario changed dramatically from a shooting gallery for Abrams into a desperate fight for survival on Abrams part. T90 has the stuff to take on Abrams... in the right circumstances, if used correctly.

[c3k]

There was a great AAR posted here (CMFB I think). A night fight. It showed very well the "unzippering" effect of night LOS when units opened fire.  One unit, far left, fired on the enemy. The enemy, now seeing that unit, had it's opposite units open fire. Well, those units were visible to more units to the right. So, they opened fire. More enemy units saw them and opened fire. In less than a minute, from a few rifle shots on the far left, units from that side to the far right all opened fire on one another. Prior to that, no units had contacts. (Covered arcs would have helped.)

 

[Lethaface]

The Kontakt-5 ERA on the T-90 did stop quite a couple of Challenger-2 APFSDS rounds in a PBEM I played last weeks. Even at close range, so that's a pre for the T-90 compared to the Kontakt-1 the T-72AV Turms-T has.

[domfluff]

I think there's some interesting nuance in the decision - for example, the TURMS-T isn't going to be firing multi-spectral smoke, which means it's going to be firing smoke that it can see through. In a fight against something without thermals then, that could be a major advantage. The T-90SA does have a laser warning receiver as well, which is a thing.

The PBEM this was actually for is over - it was a Medium sized Quick Battle on one of the largest stock maps in CMSF, at midnight. My opponent went for quantity, mostly T-55MV and BMP-1 against my two platoons of TURMS-T and two platoons of BMP-2. I had an AT-13 platoon refusing one flank, and the recon platoon managing the other, with the intent of cutting up the middle with the two mutually supporting T-72 platoons with 120mm mortars in support. Soft factors weren't much changed from "typical", so mostly Green or thereabouts.

As it turned out, the thermals proved decisive within the first five minutes or so, dominating the older armour. I don't think they actually fired at me for the whole game, leaving the survivors hiding in a village, waiting to be flattened by artillery.



Overview:

Last defensive position:

So... not much of a battle really, and one firmly won in the setup screen. Enemy armour was a mix of T-72AV an T-55MV. I still think the T-55MV is pretty good value for money, but obviously far outclassed here.

I was concerned about the high ground to my far right - for some reason I couldn't set a delayed fire mission from the on-map mortars (we agreed no art for the first four minutes, since it was a meeting engagement), but I wanted to use mortars to deny that high ground to any AT-13/AT-14 with their thermals placed up there, even if they were only there as spotters.

One thing I did realise was that the FO without night vision was pretty useless, but a T72 Commander could do the job almost as well - using their thermals to call in fire was the sensible option, and would "only" add about four minutes delay. I was tempted to go for Syrian special forces or airborne, but given the large map and flat terrain, the armour fight was always going to be the centre of gravity.

Edited August 22, 2020 by domfluff

[MOS:96B2P]

6 minutes ago, domfluff said:

for some reason I couldn't set a delayed fire mission from the on-map mortars 

Only off map mortars/artillery have the delay option and have it the entire mission.  On map never has it including during pre-planned setup.    

 

8 minutes ago, domfluff said:

the FO without night vision was pretty useless, but a T72 Commander could do the job almost as well - using their thermals to call in fire 

Interesting.  Congratulations on your win.