What the actual hell is this game?

[butler69]

I own all CMx1 and x2 titles, but what the actual hell is this game?

Two US rifle squads from a stock mission (called House Cleaning, or whatever that US MOUT team clearing the hospital mission is called).. cannot kill a single dude. The best part is, this single dude with an AK has suppressed both squads, killed team members of those squads and refuses to be suppressed or even killed by multiple M4s, multiple 40mm grenades and whatever else these dudes throw at him. This is unacceptable... seriously. I don't know what they're feeding this dude, or what type of morale he's got especially since i'm pretty sure the rest of his squad is surrendered but this guy's got some massive balls. 

It just blows my mind that literally ONE guy, with a RIFLE, can do this. I'm no retard or anything, but I think I have the fire superiority here. I never complain, because I know if I lose or get guys killed.. it is my fault but like this is garbage. This has been going on for several minutes because I am actually impressed and want to see the outcome. 

[butler69]

Update, so basically a minute later and with the help of a 40mm stryker. The 5 minutes of literal contact with this guy finally ceases by him being killed.

I play Elite difficulty, but this isn't elite. This is just dumb. 

 

[Wicky]

Have you a save file you can share?

[butler69]

No because I quit out after I finished seeing the outcome of that engagement. 

I have a picture of it though. 

Feel free to try it yourself, its the team that's inside the far south west building next to the wall at the entrance. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by butler69

[Xorg_Xalargsky]

Damn, it's tough out there brother.

[MikeyD]

You look over kill stats after a typical scenario, jumping from unit to unit, and the numbers usually look like 1, 0, 2, 2, 3, 45, 2, 0, 0. One hero and the rest cannon fodder. Its good news when the hero is on your team, its bad news when he's on the other side. If you played this after the patch, soldiers will be less likely to break and do something stupid, which means a harder fight.

[BarendJanNL]

I understand your frustration, I frequently have situations where I feel the same way, although it is often my own lack of suppressive fire in the preparation phase of the attack/assault.

Also, if I remember correctly, troops can be set to 'Fanatical' in the Force Selector, so maybe that is the case with this guy/unit.

 

You look over kill stats after a typical scenario, jumping from unit to unit, and the numbers usually look like 1, 0, 2, 2, 3, 45, 2, 0, 0. One hero and the rest cannon fodder.

Funny in my case it is often the 'lazy' Forward Observer who has the most kills.

Edited July 18, 2020 by BarendJanNL
Adding own frustration;)

[37mm]

1 hour ago, butler69 said:

It just blows my mind that literally ONE guy, with a RIFLE, can do this. I'm no retard or anything, but I think I have the fire superiority here. I never complain, because I know if I lose or get guys killed.. it is my fault but like this is garbage. This has been going on for several minutes because I am actually impressed and want to see the outcome. 

Many veterans complain that buildings don't provide enough cover however the modern games, like CMSF2, can still be pretty brutal... even a few bad moves/decisions can lead to heavy casualties (CMBS is often considered to be worse than SF2 in that regard however, because of the lack of body armour, arguably CMA is even worse than that).

Most of the Syrians in that scenario are at "normal" motivation... but there is a spattering of highly motivated troops who are more than willing to stand up to fire.

It should be noted that CMSF2 models relatively weak building penetration of the 5.56mm armed blue forces (when compared with the heavier AK rounds or full power rifle/GPMG rounds).

After many (very many in my case) bloody disasters, modern CM players tend to learn to be paranoid & cautious... and then bring overwhelming firepower, from covered positions, to deal with any spotted enemy.

Also, because of "elite" fog of war, you might have been wrong about the enemy position being only a single guy/unit.

Edited July 18, 2020 by 37mm

[Bufo]

2 hours ago, BarendJanNL said:

Funny in my case it is often the 'lazy' Forward Observer who has the most kills.

No wonder, artillery kill scores directed by him goes under his name.

[butler69]

Probably gonna uninstall this one lol or stay away from this one for a while. 

Played another mission, "De Hinderlaag" and apparently uniformed soldiers that are conscript/green experience and eventually "broken" morale can fight against multiple IFVs and infantry squads, killing some and wounding lots of my guys while they never surrender or lose a guy or two and still fight on. Keep in mind, I've killed their entire upper command, they have no Battalion or Company command and some Platoon HQs are completely wiped.

I failed the mission due to time, I suffered only several casualties and successfully captured the town objective which but it was almost impossible due to the enemy behavior.

I'd expect this kind of fanatical behavior from the Normandy title fighting the SS during the MG Campaign, and I have no problem with it.

On the other hand, my "crack" infantry units get a whiff of the enemy, and high tail it out of there and don't look back. LOL

 

Yes, I looked at the end of mission view at all the units. Almost all of the enemy units that I smacked real good with IFVs and Infantry units, even the Apache on some.. all are basically still full strength in size. They have like two or three wounded at most, their commanders are dead on almost every team and all are conscript or green experience and broken morale.

Oh, one more thing.. I didn't think extreme heat and very dry ground would cause vehicles stuck in mud conditions but I guess that is just my luck ;).

ImmErSIon & ReEALism

[MikeyD]

I'm reminded of student drivers first learning to parallel park (driving stick shift). Initially they think something's wrong with the car... then conclude the instructor is incompetent... and the task is some cruel hoax being played on them. Soon enough, though, they're parallel parking with the best of 'em.

In CM if events aren't playing out as expected it might be better to adjust your expectations rather than fault the game mechanics. A scared teenager with an AKM assault rifle can do just as much damage as an elite special forces soldier with an AKM assault rifle, especially in the enclosed space of a building. I've said this before, if your tactical plan is dependent on the opponent being blind, slow and cowardly you're probably not going to fare well.

[GladiTimor]

Well, it's a hard pill to swallow (was for me also), but the game is right in principle, although one guy defeating two US squads is a bit extreme. IRL doing FISH with "tacticool" swat\coin like room clearing tactics against a prepeared\entrenched opfor will end in disaster for your troops. You always want some fire from the outside, especially of the explosive type that can go inside the building to do its job.

[agusto]

MOUT operations in CMx2 titles have always been pretty bloody if not executed without exceptional care. I can not make a statement regarding your specific situation, but what i ve observed in the couple of years playing CMx2 is that clearing a building occupied by hostile forces is

1. Best avoided if possible
2. If avoiding clearing the building is impossible, destroy the building or its occupants using heavy fire power (tanks, aircraft artillery, what ever you' ve got).
3. If destroying the building or it's occupants using heavy fire power is not possible, prepare it for infantry clearing by first spending a couple of turns suppressing it's occupants using at least a 3:1 force ratio and the target or target light command. RPGs and the like are wonderful tools for convincing an enemy in a building to leave it.
4. After preparing the building for assault, keep suppressing it with a target-light command and a 2:1 force ratio an send a 1:1 force ratio troop into the building, carefully. Use the pause command and suppress each room with the assault element using target-briefly for at least 10 seconds before entering (this also leads to some grenade throwing, etc). If possible, send the assault element into the building using demo charges by blowing in a wall that has no windows and from the top most floor possible (because hand grenades work best if thrown from an upper to a lower floor). If heavy resistance is encountered in a room, retreat and try to destroy or at least suppress the enemy using your over-watch element from the outside.

Using above listed steps, MOUT against an inferior force as the Syrians in CMSF2 can usually be done relative casualty free. Fighting an equal enemy such as the Russians in CMBS, on the other hand, will always cause you some losses, there is no way around it. Just accept it and keep pushing forward towards your mission objectives.

Edited July 19, 2020 by agusto

[mjkerner]

agusto is spot on!

[IICptMillerII]

Rage against the machine my dude 

44 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

In CM if events aren't playing out as expected it might be better to adjust your expectations rather than fault the game mechanics. A scared teenager with an AKM assault rifle can do just as much damage as an elite special forces soldier with an AKM assault rifle, especially in the enclosed space of a building. I've said this before, if your tactical plan is dependent on the opponent being blind, slow and cowardly you're probably not going to fare well.

Completely agree.

I guess all that talk about CMSF2 being an easy title because the Syrians are a pushover was just bluster...

[Erwin]

Good post by agusto... Also, it's sometimes useful to use smoke.  In CM2 smoke will cover the same area whether there are buildings there or not.  So, you can blind several rooms and thus mitigate the ambush issue when enemy units hide behind the 2nd wall of a room that you want to enter - where the enemy is usually immune to suppressive fire and can kill many of the assaulters.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Erwin

[MikeyD]

The go-to urban tactic if you have the available resources is 'blast'. Whether you need to or not, blow out a wall just to suppress the guys inside

[37mm]

5 hours ago, butler69 said:

I failed the mission due to time, I suffered only several casualties and successfully captured the town objective which but it was almost impossible due to the enemy behavior.

Many of them may be barely trained but the Syrians in that scenario are on the offensive & have made the decision to fight against the invaders... most are highly motivated.

There is marsh/bog/mud near the set-up zones in that scenario so bogging could be an issue if you cross such terrain. Another issue is there are quite a number of minefields dotted around the map (I managed to hit every damn one from what I recall) which could also immobilize your vehicles.

The town objective is well defended and potentially very bloody, following "rule 1" from @agusto, I remember initially bypassing that objective.

Either way, it sounds like you actually did fairly well & at least kept your casualties down. I think you might be allowing small frustrations/hiccups to seem larger & more important than they actually are.

Scenario time-limits are a complex balancing act for scenarion designers to decide upon... too much time & it is felt that the scenario can become too easy (and also start raising issues about reinforcements & resupply). Too little time and it can become too bloody/too hard/too immersion breaking.

Myself? I tend to not worry so much about the "victory" objectives or even the time limit that much and always appreciate the work that scenario designers have done in creating maps & AI plans & briefings & all the rest of that stuff.

[The Steppenwulf]

On 7/18/2020 at 5:42 PM, MikeyD said:

If you played this after the patch, soldiers will be less likely to break and do something stupid, which means a harder fight.

Unfortunately I've just discovered on my first play with the new patch that this isn't the case. Morale seems now from my observation to be overly brittle. Put reg infantry under fire so they become rattled and then they'll scoot all getting mown down in the process. Yes okay no more running towards the enemy, but it makes little difference if scooting is in the open. Exposed equals death! Very frustrating indeed after having waited so long for the patch.

I suspect others will start to observe this coding behaviour soon enough and reporting on these forums the same! 

Edited July 20, 2020 by The Steppenwulf

[MikeyD]

Er, no. If you purposefully abuse your troops they'll still break. That was never going to be designed out of their behavior. They just removed the unwanted behavior from the coding.

[IICptMillerII]

1 hour ago, The Steppenwulf said:

Unfortunately I've just discovered on my first play with the new patch that this isn't the case. Morale seems now from my observation to be overly brittle. Put reg infantry under fire so they become rattled and then they'll scoot all getting mown down in the process.

Uh... do you have a save/replay of this? Because the infantry behavior was a huge pet peeve of mine and I have tested the new behavior and posted about it to the point of annoyance, and I can say with 100% confidence that the new TacAI behavior is superb. Infantry do not break and run unless their morale goes to pieces. Rattled infantry won't flee. Infantry are much less brittle now than they were even a patch ago. Again, I have literally tested this a ton. I'm legitimately baffled by your statement. 

33 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

Er, no. If you purposefully abuse your troops they'll still break. That was never going to be designed out of their behavior. They just removed the unwanted behavior from the coding.

This seems much more likely to be the case. If you force your infantry to suffer massive casualties and abuse the hell out of them, then their morale will break and off they'll go. 

Are you sure you patched your games correctly? CMSF2 should show v2.03 if it has been patched correctly. 

[Bozowans]

29 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

Uh... do you have a save/replay of this? Because the infantry behavior was a huge pet peeve of mine and I have tested the new behavior and posted about it to the point of annoyance, and I can say with 100% confidence that the new TacAI behavior is superb. Infantry do not break and run unless their morale goes to pieces. Rattled infantry won't flee. Infantry are much less brittle now than they were even a patch ago. Again, I have literally tested this a ton. I'm legitimately baffled by your statement. 

I've only played one scenario with the new patch but I'm agreeing with this so far. I just played the "De Hinderlaag" scenario and I was surprised at how tough it was. I got a minor defeat, unable to dislodge the Syrians from the objectives completely. Even though most of the Syrians were green or conscripts, I found that I couldn't just blindly shoot at enemy-occupied buildings until they ran away anymore. I got some enemies out in an open field to run away, but most of the guys in the buildings were stubborn and didn't wanna leave their good cover. I could suppress them easily, but there were such large numbers of them that I couldn't deal with them all in the time allotted.

They had about 200 men against my 60. I found that I usually had to either blow up the buildings or assault them up close with infantry, either killing them or making them surrender. I got a couple Syrian squads to surrender, but it just wasn't enough. I waited too long early in the game for fire support to arrive, and then didn't have enough time to clear the objectives. I ordered a last-ditch rush toward the objectives at the end of the game, but I was only able to partially clear them and I took too many casualties. The Syrians didn't even take 50% casualties.

It was a really fun scenario honestly. I'm gonna have to change my tactics and try it again.

[Freyberg]

9 hours ago, MikeyD said:

The go-to urban tactic if you have the available resources is 'blast'. Whether you need to or not, blow out a wall just to suppress the guys inside

This definitely works - and it makes sense. Walking in the door one-by-one is asking for trouble

[IICptMillerII]

1 hour ago, Bozowans said:

I've only played one scenario with the new patch but I'm agreeing with this so far. I just played the "De Hinderlaag" scenario and I was surprised at how tough it was. I got a minor defeat, unable to dislodge the Syrians from the objectives completely. Even though most of the Syrians were green or conscripts, I found that I couldn't just blindly shoot at enemy-occupied buildings until they ran away anymore. I got some enemies out in an open field to run away, but most of the guys in the buildings were stubborn and didn't wanna leave their good cover. I could suppress them easily, but there were such large numbers of them that I couldn't deal with them all in the time allotted.

They had about 200 men against my 60. I found that I usually had to either blow up the buildings or assault them up close with infantry, either killing them or making them surrender. I got a couple Syrian squads to surrender, but it just wasn't enough. I waited too long early in the game for fire support to arrive, and then didn't have enough time to clear the objectives. I ordered a last-ditch rush toward the objectives at the end of the game, but I was only able to partially clear them and I took too many casualties. The Syrians didn't even take 50% casualties.

Great anecdote, and its good to hear! Even conscript Syrians should pose a threat now for the reasons you just mentioned, which is realistic. A single guy with an AK, regardless of training, can cause a lot of damage, as Mike pointed out earlier. 

Plus, proper infantry tactics are essential now. You cannot clear buildings/fortifications by simply shooting the enemy out/off of their positions. This is one of the many reasons urban combat is so deadly and time consuming. 

[The Steppenwulf]

5 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

Uh... do you have a save/replay of this?

here

German side - there's just the single infantry unit that takes casualties, near the buildings overlooking the US dug in positions in front of the windmill and hamlet.

I suspect the problem is the ditch, which is not processed by the game as representing "cover".