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CM Shock Force2 v2.03 patch has been released.


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6 hours ago, Gkenny said:

This honestly just showcases how weak artillery rounds/HE are to vehicles when exploding nearby, and that a shot like that would likely cause severe damage to the tank while in game vehicles are usually just fine unless its essentially a direct hit. I think HerrTom had some great simulations done for CMBS showcasing the real effect of near misses on armored vehicles, which showed many penetrations from shrapnel.

This has already been thoroughly debated, so I won't go into too much detail here. I'll acknowledge that near misses could probably cause a bit more damage to external subsystems like radio antennas and the like. However, the idea that HE artillery is enough to wipe out tanks is not true. To back this up, here is data from JRTC showing the average casualty assesment for the use of a given number of 152/155mm HE against various types of targets:

 4n2Dbcf.jpg

As you can see, only 1 tank is expected to be destroyed, and that would still take on average 100+ shells. 

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They are there in the QB force list under Mech Infantry. And for @The_MonkeyKing, they are equipped with BMP-3 and BMP-3s are available as Individual Vehicles as well. Dave

In the campaign, Dutch engineers with grenade launchers also carry a second C7.  e: Also about the Dutch, CV 90 air busting when firing at buildings is infuriating considering how much of th

The syrian paratroopers have still 100 ammunition...

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While I'm not arguing with the data, that doesn't seem to match up with what we've seen in recent conflicts.....The Lost Armour site is littered with pictures of tanks & IFVs destroyed by direct hits from artillery (notably 152mm rounds).

I do wonder how much this depends on whether the target vehicle was buttoned up at the moment of impact.....In a conventional stonk, a vehicle crew should have plenty of warning, but with a precision munition, there would be none.

Chain detonation of ERA also appears to have been a factor in some of these instances too.

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That chart is for normal HE mission, it appears. You'd have better results using DPICM, or Copperhead, which was available at the time. Copperhead required a laser designator. DPICM can be fired as a regular fire mission, and doesn't need any guidance. Excalibur too. Copperhead is a tank killer, with a shaped charge warhead. That's what it was designed to do. Excalibur is not as far as I know - HE charge but highly accurate, so better for precision strikes or maybe bunkers, improved positions that an HE PD or Time mission might not do much too.

For an HE mission to destroy tanks in the open, you really need a direct hit, which is very likely to immobilize/kill the crew inside, but still has a decent chance of leaving the tank usable in the future. Also, the older model the tank, the "easier" it would be to kill with artillery IF you hit it.

Better results in direct fire, but if you are the artillery battery and are in direct fire mode against enemy tanks, well, it's been a really bad day out front of you.

Dave

Edited by Ultradave
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8 hours ago, Ultradave said:

For an HE mission to destroy tanks in the open, you really need a direct hit, which is very likely to immobilize/kill the crew inside, but still has a decent chance of leaving the tank usable in the future. Also, the older model the tank, the "easier" it would be to kill with artillery IF you hit it.

Scratch the usable in the future part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBQe7Ahod34

1:43 for the before and 2:43 for the after. If you get a dricet hit unless youre hitting the Turret or hull front composite armour arrays of something like an abrams/leopard2 youre left with a wreck and if you hit the composite armour thats a full rebuild of the area. In either case the tank is ko.

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In the campaign, Dutch engineers with grenade launchers also carry a second C7. 

NyT96fe.png

e: Also about the Dutch, CV 90 air busting when firing at buildings is infuriating considering how much of their campaign is MOUT. The CV 90s could also probably using some tweaking to better conserve ammunition. I'm not sure if their crews doctrinally fire single shots or small bursts, but I feel like in SF2 they are firing like they have a 25mm bushmaster instead of their larger, more capable weapon. 

Finally, and someone could clarify Dutch doctrine for me, how are squads supposed to split to employ the FN MAG and AWSM-F? I ask because if they are supposed to peel off into two-man teams, that can't be done right now. 

I served as an artilleryman on 109's and 777's. 155mm shells will ruin your day, even under armour and I think subsystems like optics and radios should be more damaged, but there is a reason why battery anti-armour drills put most of the emphasis on the battery anti-tank weapons and not direct fire from the guns themselves. 

Direct fire with a howitzer is not easy. They're not dual purpose guns like the 25lbr, we don't have HEAT or sabot rounds, heck we have bagged charges. Direct fire on point targets is much more effective than in the days of Wellington, but the principle is the same, and since the Boer War, whatever we are directly fire on is much better at firing directly at us, which was the whole reason for the switch to indirect fire. 

All of that to say, there are a lot of things on a tank that will break from shell splinters. Many of those things like optics and radios probably should be more easily damaged in Combat Mission. Some of those things like pioneer tools, spare parts and jerry cans are not relevant to the time frame of a scenario. Some other effects like damage to electronics, crew stress, possibly damage to welds and seating of parts, I can't really speak to. 

For Shock Force 2, It would be nice if the legacy "Armor" fire mission was either clarified to be HE-delay, in which case all titles should have it, retooled to DPICM, or removed. 

Edited by DougPhresh
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On 8/19/2020 at 3:38 PM, DougPhresh said:

Also about the Dutch, CV 90 air busting when firing at buildings is infuriating considering how much of their campaign is MOUT. The CV 90s could also probably using some tweaking to better conserve ammunition. I'm not sure if their crews doctrinally fire single shots or small bursts, but I feel like in SF2 they are firing like they have a 25mm bushmaster instead of their larger, more capable weapon. 

+1!
The CV9035 seems to be always unloading a full clip/magazine, or more. It spots 1 guy running in the street, kills it with the first round but continues to pump rounds for another 10 seconds or whatever. Not once this happened in my games.

I'm quite sure I've seen other IFVs stopping fire after target is down. Just played a battle with the UK Warrior, which is much more conservative with it's ammo. I guess the CV-9035 would be better to have a pattern like the Warrior, compared to it's current behavior.

Edited by Lethaface
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On 8/19/2020 at 3:38 PM, DougPhresh said:

Finally, and someone could clarify Dutch doctrine for me, how are squads supposed to split to employ the FN MAG and AWSM-F? I ask because if they are supposed to peel off into two-man teams, that can't be done right now. 

Don't know the official doctrine, not sure if that's public either. I break m up in half squads. The SL section with the GPMG is great for overwatch/suppression imo. The sniper is good for deadly overwatch a bit further back. In other words the FN MAG squads are my main fire and maneuver squads, while the sniper squads are the main overwatch squads. But both can perform same job if necessary. 

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Just noticed an issue with troops ordered to 'clear fire', after having been on 'target light' for one turn. Instead of holding fire, they fire of an Pz Faust 3. 
This has happened twice in a row for me now, but haven't seen it before. It's with Dutch troops, CMSF2 Dutch campaign 3rd battle. Save attached, the squad firing off the faust had a target light order the previous turn on the building the faust falls just short  off.

Back on Tracks 3 - Clear target light issue_PZ FAUST.bts

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14 hours ago, Lethaface said:

Save attached, the squad firing off the faust had a target light order the previous turn on the building the faust falls just short  off.

Back on Tracks 3 - Clear target light issue_PZ FAUST.bts 25.05 MB · 0 downloads

I've noticed this as well with the Germans. I don't think it's something to do with the Target Light command ending but more about the TacAI deciding what weapons to use on it's own accord. The Panzerfaust 3 TacAI is apparently using them to target buildings where there are enemy present. This in itself isn't bad (it's like RPG7's with the Syrians) but I think players would prefer to have control around whether the faust is used or not to try and dislodge and enemy. The long range of the faust means it gets used pretty quickly as soon as enemy are spotted so players playing WEGO really have no chance to react.

I have no idea if using a faust in this fashion is tactically correct from a professional military point of view (I'm no grog that's for sure :D ) but again I think the player would rather have this greater level of control of the asset in this instance.

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3 hours ago, Ithikial_AU said:

I've noticed this as well with the Germans. I don't think it's something to do with the Target Light command ending but more about the TacAI deciding what weapons to use on it's own accord. The Panzerfaust 3 TacAI is apparently using them to target buildings where there are enemy present. This in itself isn't bad (it's like RPG7's with the Syrians) but I think players would prefer to have control around whether the faust is used or not to try and dislodge and enemy. The long range of the faust means it gets used pretty quickly as soon as enemy are spotted so players playing WEGO really have no chance to react.

I have no idea if using a faust in this fashion is tactically correct from a professional military point of view (I'm no grog that's for sure :D ) but again I think the player would rather have this greater level of control of the asset in this instance.

Could be an explanation too!
Agreed that I wouldn't be happy if the pixeltruppen would go about firing Pz Fausts at any spotting contacts ;-). But I'm not grog on that point either.

I'll double check if I can repeat the clear target / target light behavior. Those were the only panzerfausts my truppen fired of by themselves, while they have been in a number of firefights. It happened twice in a row and both times after I cleared a target light order.
The previous  occasion was a turn before this one, but that missile struck the house and killed of the surrendering Syrians in there. I guessed my troops didn't like taking prisoners and I was weary of reporting their warcrime here, but it was a bit too coincidentally after it happened again.

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