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A little preamble to this taster ...  I grew up in rural Dorset in the south of England where our countryside is not so different than that of Normandy (though the Cider may be a bit stronger!).

... and another That's all I seem to be able to upload for now, so for more look at the DropBox folder linked above ... LS

In an effort to raise the level of conversation again - why camouflage is important plus some hazel bushes and trees ... there's hazel in the bocage as well, but this view caught my eye ...

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6 hours ago, Vacilllator said:

Very nice indeed.  I'm still using the version 1 you posted a while ago, is there something more that I could be getting my teeth into (beta 2 was mentioned)?

Tell me not to be greedy and impatient if you like 😉

Haha. Not really, I’ve done the brush and crops 1 to 4 doodads, but haven’t done final checks on them yet. As I said, I’m struggling a bit to get the flax crop 5 and 6 doodads looking right - flax is quite difficult to depict well without making it look like a row of toothbrush bristles. I think I have a solution though, so am pressing on with them. Once those are done I just have the marsh doodads to make with some minor revisions to the first release and we’re done. If I do get time at the weekend I may bundle up a few of the newer pieces but I’m loathe to release lots of small packs as I don’t want to get into too many versions floating around confusing folks. Not that much to do and I reckon it’ll be ready before Ire & Rubble 😉

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12 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

I’m loathe to release lots of small packs as I don’t want to get into too many versions floating around confusing folks.

Understood and perfectly sensible.

Talking of crops, while walking the dogs yesterday in beautiful Somerset I was reminded of your excellent work while having to force my way through a field of 8 foot high maize (yes, grown right over the footpath).  I wondered whether tall crops like maize, sunflowers etc. have been or will be included in any CM games?  Don't think I've seen any but I only have BN and RT so far - they would of course not be out of place in either of those...

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1 hour ago, Vacilllator said:

Understood and perfectly sensible.

Talking of crops, while walking the dogs yesterday in beautiful Somerset I was reminded of your excellent work while having to force my way through a field of 8 foot high maize (yes, grown right over the footpath).  I wondered whether tall crops like maize, sunflowers etc. have been or will be included in any CM games?  Don't think I've seen any but I only have BN and RT so far - they would of course not be out of place in either of those...

Farmers don’t always respect footpaths, I guess it’s hard with modern machinery to stop for a narrow strip that might be at a weird angle. I remember raiding maize fields as a young whippersnapper, not realising the difference between sweet corn and maize grown for animal feed - don’t recommend it!

I consulted with @Falaise when I was deciding what crops to sow. He kindly advised me that the main crops for Normandy back in the day were pretty much what BF had depicted - wheat, oats and flax (for linen etc). I think maize, like oilseed rape, is a more modern addition and sunflowers appear further south. I think there’s a sunflower mod somewhere for RT. Sunflowers may be appropriate, though not sure if these are widely grown in Ukraine or Poland, certainly rye should be depicted I would think. Getting the game to reproduce height is not possible without perhaps some tinkering under the hood. The doodads seem to be limited by the dimensions of the originals. I can increase the resolution but not the height SFAIK.

I may, in the future, introduce some extra crops for the south and/or west of France, sunflowers, artichokes, but at the moment my plans are to finish the BN mod and then add a few extras for Market Garden - by the time of those ops the harvest would generally have been done, so some stubble fields would be appropriate perhaps, and maybe some early winter crops like sprouts or potatoes, I need to do some research and take advice from a native of the lowlands ...

There are gaping omissions in the vegetation for France, Belgium, Holland and western Germany - no vines for the Alsace, Rhine valley, Champagne for example. Unfortunately there’s a limit to what I can add. I don’t know if FB features vines, don’t have it to consult.

And then there’s CMFI of course - massive job which might well be beyond me, those vines jar with me, we’ll see ...

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On 8/20/2020 at 3:05 PM, Lucky_Strike said:

 I don’t know if FB features vines, don’t have it to consult..

Nope, there aren't vines in FB. I assuming that is because the stock campaign set in Germany takes place in the streets of Aachen in autumn, and the stock battles set on the Franco-German border take place in mid winter.

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On 8/20/2020 at 4:05 PM, Lucky_Strike said:

Farmers don’t always respect footpaths, I guess it’s hard with modern machinery to stop for a narrow strip that might be at a weird angle. I remember raiding maize fields as a young whippersnapper, not realising the difference between sweet corn and maize grown for animal feed - don’t recommend it!

I consulted with @Falaise when I was deciding what crops to sow. He kindly advised me that the main crops for Normandy back in the day were pretty much what BF had depicted - wheat, oats and flax (for linen etc). I think maize, like oilseed rape, is a more modern addition and sunflowers appear further south. I think there’s a sunflower mod somewhere for RT. Sunflowers may be appropriate, though not sure if these are widely grown in Ukraine or Poland, certainly rye should be depicted I would think. Getting the game to reproduce height is not possible without perhaps some tinkering under the hood. The doodads seem to be limited by the dimensions of the originals. I can increase the resolution but not the height SFAIK.

I may, in the future, introduce some extra crops for the south and/or west of France, sunflowers, artichokes, but at the moment my plans are to finish the BN mod and then add a few extras for Market Garden - by the time of those ops the harvest would generally have been done, so some stubble fields would be appropriate perhaps, and maybe some early winter crops like sprouts or potatoes, I need to do some research and take advice from a native of the lowlands ...

There are gaping omissions in the vegetation for France, Belgium, Holland and western Germany - no vines for the Alsace, Rhine valley, Champagne for example. Unfortunately there’s a limit to what I can add. I don’t know if FB features vines, don’t have it to consult.

And then there’s CMFI of course - massive job which might well be beyond me,  

...mouth-watering for all these added futurs little projects and effects, that you made already with perseverance, or obstinacy (don t know exactly which one I have to use) never completly happy with your job, and searching always the perfection !

I take you at your word...(those vines jar with me, we’ll see ...)

jM

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On 8/20/2020 at 4:05 PM, Lucky_Strike said:

I may, in the future, introduce some extra crops for the south and/or west of France, sunflowers, artichokes, but at the moment my plans are to finish the BN mod and then add a few extras for Market Garden - by the time of those ops the harvest would generally have been done, so some stubble fields would be appropriate perhaps, and maybe some early winter crops like sprouts or potatoes, I need to do some research and take advice from a native of the lowlands ...

There are gaping omissions in the vegetation for France, Belgium, Holland and western Germany - no vines for the Alsace, Rhine valley, Champagne for example. Unfortunately there’s a limit to what I can add. I don’t know if FB features vines, don’t have it to consult.

And then there’s CMFI of course - massive job which might well be beyond me, those vines jar with me, we’ll see ...

No specialist but know a little / looked a few sources up. During the war many cattle and grassland was converted into crops to become self sufficient.

Grain is currently mostly (winter)wheat, presumably not much different back then. During the war I read there were a lot of potatoes and various vegetables ( beets, cabbages, sprouts, etc).

There is a lot of maize now, not sure back then.

I did read about rapeseed being subsidized during the war as a crop because some fats could be gained from it. 

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4 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Nope, there aren't vines in FB. I assuming that is because the stock campaign set in Germany takes place in the streets of Aachen in autumn, and the stock battles set on the Franco-German border take place in mid winter.

So unless they’re added later in a patch, there’ll be no vines in FB = no champagne nor riesling ... sorry folks 

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3 hours ago, 3j2m7 said:

...mouth-watering for all these added futurs little projects and effects, that you made already with perseverance, or obstinacy (don t know exactly which one I have to use) never completly happy with your job, and searching always the perfection !

I take you at your word...(those vines jar with me, we’ll see ...)

jM

Hahaha. I think both are appropriate. Have had an enforced break for a couple of weeks, but am getting back on the case now. Boy do I hate crops, they are by far the hardest textures to make look somewhat convincing, but I am nearly there, so will be able to post an update in a few weeks ... hopefully!

 

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1 hour ago, Lethaface said:

No specialist but know a little / looked a few sources up. During the war many cattle and grassland was converted into crops to become self sufficient.

Grain is currently mostly (winter)wheat, presumably not much different back then. During the war I read there were a lot of potatoes and various vegetables ( beets, cabbages, sprouts, etc).

There is a lot of maize now, not sure back then.

I did read about rapeseed being subsidized during the war as a crop because some fats could be gained from it. 

This is useful info, thanks @Lethaface. Makes sense, guessing the German army turned most of the livestock into something they could eat, or at least deprived the advancing Allies and local populations of the possibility of a steak or sausage. Root crops and brassicas should be easier to do, Brussel sprouts anyone? I think maize is probably a bit more modern, it tends to be used as animal feed and for oil production, and is a late summer/early autumn crop. I’ll need to investigate it a bit more. Rapeseed is usually grown as an early summer crop, at least in the UK, so might well be out of the timeframe for BN/CW/MG or FB in the Low Countries or Germany.

 

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Ahh, I remember 'Lucky Strike' back in the CMx1 days...

I PM'ed you several yrs ago and saying how great your Panther Mods where (among a few others)...I was hoping one day for you to re-join the now CMx2 Mod Community...Great to have you back :-) 

Joe

Edited by JoMc67
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On 16/09/2020 at 16:51, Lucky_Strike said:

Hahaha. Je pense que les deux sont appropriés. J'ai eu une pause forcée pendant quelques semaines, mais je reviens sur l'affaire maintenant. Mec, je déteste les cultures, ce sont de loin les textures les plus difficiles à faire paraître un peu convaincantes, mais j'y suis presque, je serai donc en mesure de publier une mise à jour dans quelques semaines ... j'espère!

 

good news 😉

Lethaface's remark on the incitement to rapeseed questioned me. I checked what it was for France.
I discovered that it was massively cultivated in France between 1750 and 1850, its oil being used as fuel for oil lamps.
With the constitution of the colonial empire, this culture was abandoned and replaced by imports of peanut oils from the colonies.
On the eve of World War II, the culture almost disappeared. During the occupation, the interruption of imports will encourage the authorities to relaunch this crop. However, the farmers will resist and it is only after the liberation that the cultivation resumes in favor of edible oil.
 In normandy in 1944 no rapeseed !!
it's crazy what we learn with this game !!!

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On 9/17/2020 at 8:30 PM, JoMc67 said:

Ahh, I remember 'Lucky Strike' back in the CMx1 days...

I PM'ed you several yrs ago and saying how great your Panther Mods where (among a few others)...I was hoping one day for you to re-join the now CMx2 Mod Community...Great to have you back 🙂 

Joe

Thanks Joe, I remember.

I did love those Panthers, but I got into modding CMx1 a bit late, not long before CMX2 emerged, then RL got in the way for a bit. I never went too far away, but modding takes time, which I was a bit short of when CMBN came out, so I had to put it aside. I’d really like to do some more vehicle textures, but I think the existing ones are pretty well covered (for now), whereas there are other things that drew my attention - still not happy with the bocage but I can’t resolve that (yet ...).

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On 9/17/2020 at 10:46 PM, Falaise said:

it's crazy what we learn with this game !!!

LOL for sure! And what we pass on to others. Merci, mon ami! Who would have thought we’d be discussing arable farming in a war games forum ...?!

I never knew rapeseed oil was used as fuel back then. I’m definitely not going to be modding any for now. Just putting the finishing touches to Le Lin.

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46 minutes ago, Lucky_Strike said:

still not happy with the bocage but I can’t resolve that (yet ...).

My curiosity is peaked 🙂 as I'm not either.  Can't say I like bocage much anyway from a tank perspective, but that's not the point.  Sounds like you have a cunning plan in mind, or that your jedi powers will evolve sufficiently to transform those large angular ever-green hedges?

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22 hours ago, Vacilllator said:

My curiosity is peaked 🙂 as I'm not either.  Can't say I like bocage much anyway from a tank perspective, but that's not the point.  Sounds like you have a cunning plan in mind, or that your jedi powers will evolve sufficiently to transform those large angular ever-green hedges?

17 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Hedgerows could certainly do with some attention from the modding community. It would be good to see some earthen banks, tree roots, fallen branches etc.

Hmm. All I've managed so far is to tweak the bocage textures to include some alternative plants - hawthorn, weeds, brambles etc - but the way the graphics are used is a quite perplexing. Unlike most of the foliage textures used in-game, bocage is hard edged, so renders with a very blocky look. I don’t know if this can be affected in any way by altering the underlying models. Also it uses what appear to be straight poles for branches, again not sure if this can be changed. The earthen banks are created from the underlying ground textures, if plain grass is used under the bocage it looks pretty poor, some other ground textures look a bit better but this is down to the map maker to improve.

Unfortunately some decisions were made early on in the game development to have the bocage look like evergreen hedges, probably down to what was easy for the existing graphics capabilities of PCs to handle. This applies similarly to brush, bushes and trees. And, whilst these latter textures can be improved on, the bocage remains stubbornly resistant to change. My hope is that I can eventually make some changes to the underlying models to improve the look, but honestly, don’t hold your cumulative breaths.

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21 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

@Lucky_Strike Thanks for that explanation of the underlying problems of modding the hedgerows. I've always thought that the "straight poles" in particular looked out of place. 

NP

Whilst it’s all still fresh in my mind I might have a small interlude to look at the bocage 3D models once I finish the basic Normandy textures. 

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I've just started having a look at Rambler's Trees and Bocage mod (with thanks to @Rambler I assume).  If you haven't seen it, it thins out foliage on trees, or on both trees and bocage.  Interesting as it is probably more accurate than the dense impenetrable vision blocks in some situations, but perhaps not in others. 

Here's the link in case it's news to anyone:

https://www.thefewgoodmen.com/cm-mod-warehouse/combat-mission-battle-for-normandy/cmbn-scenery/ramblers-trees-bocage/

P.S. In another thread the theme was why bother using mods, LOL can't stop myself.

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46 minutes ago, Vacilllator said:

I've just started having a look at Rambler's Trees and Bocage mod (with thanks to @Rambler I assume).  If you haven't seen it, it thins out foliage on trees, or on both trees and bocage.  Interesting as it is probably more accurate than the dense impenetrable vision blocks in some situations, but perhaps not in others. 

Here's the link in case it's news to anyone:

https://www.thefewgoodmen.com/cm-mod-warehouse/combat-mission-battle-for-normandy/cmbn-scenery/ramblers-trees-bocage/

P.S. In another thread the theme was why bother using mods, LOL can't stop myself.

Thanks. I long used Rambler's excellent mods and then EZ's, which I think were versions of Rambler's, or at least inspired by them.

Bocage/hedgerows are so variable it's probably impossible to model all the different types. Some like it thick, some like it thin ... What I'd really like is a model that introduces some kind of variation in density. We have two different heights plus the garden hedge, but what would also be good is some different densities along the length of the bocage, auto-generated by the game engine or applied by the map maker. Maybe if we get a CMx3 BN this could be introduced - with associated spotting issues of course.

I may do a quick thinner version of my bocage and trees for those that don't like squinting at their screens to find their own pixeltrüppen let alone the enemy.

Did you see the YT video posted by @scarletto here:

Quite interesting in a hedge nerd kinda way.

P.S. you are suffering an addiction to mod p0rn

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3 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Did you see the YT video posted by @scarletto here:

Quite interesting in a hedge nerd kinda way.

P.S. you are suffering an addiction to mod p0rn

Yes I have indeed watched that 😉 and yes to the mod prawn.

I like the suggestion of @Falaise, particularly as he is our Normandie expert.

As an interesting example of use of mods, I was just playing @George MC's excellent Wittmann's Villers Bocage scenario (yes still playing it George but well on the way to finishing, real life is too demanding).  Anyway, on a track with bocage on either side, Rambler's mod allowed me to see a couple of gaps with a view down to the railway below.  Wittmann and another accompanying Tiger exacted revenge from on high on a Firefly which had earlier taken out one of their colleagues.  Excellent moment, all the better for watching the Firefly trying unsuccessfully to decide which Tiger to fire at.  I love it when a plan comes together.  Now on to Villers Bocage - I have Rolf Mobius providing powerful assistance and have (I think) taken out most of the opposition 🙂.

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