Evade towards enemy

[Lt Bull]

Hello,

I've gone looking for a thread posted maybe a year ago where I was originally made aware of the "evade towards enemy" behaviour (though probably an actual bug) that typically involves infantry behind hedgerows breaking that cover when under fire and running towards the enemy through gaps in the hedgerow (invariably to their deaths) that I can confirm I has been able to reliably replicate when I downloaded and played the saved game that was provided by a user investigating the issue at the time. From what I understand, this issue may only be specific to CMBN and seems to only have appeared after one of the recent patch/engine upgrades. I would have checked the status of the issue and would have posted on that thread there but I have not been able to find the thread curiously enough, hence this new thread.

So I have just started a mirrored CMBN H2H QB on a map that I know several other players have battled over, and I just had a most extraordinary occurence of this "evade towards enemy" behaviour (or whatever you want to call it).  I had three infantry teams lined up along a stretch of hedgerow in a defensive deployment, evenly separated by about 15m.  Behind them is a flat wooded orchard. In front of them is a road, beyond which the terrain gently rises, criss-crossed with some buildings and hedgerows.

On the second turn of making contact with the enemy directly in front of them, returning fire and taking some level of suppression, each team, at some point in the turn, decided to essentially break cover and run sideways along the hedgerow to the nearest infantry-sized gap in the hedgerows and run through the gap in to the open directly towards the enemy where they just get shot up.  When the teams actually break from taking casualties, the surviving pixeltruppen (eg. those that remained in place cowering behind the hedgerow) rout away from the hedgerow/enemy through the orchard behind them.

Units lined up behind hedgerows engaging enemy start of turn:

"Rattled" pixeltruppen running suicide through hedgerow gap to meet their maker:

For the full video experience, you can watch it unfold here:

First and second teams suicide

Third team suicide

I did wonder if I had inadvertently given move orders to my units during the previous orders phase (can happen if you just want to select one unit to issue a move order to but inadvertently double click it whereby also selecting all its subordinates and/or formation level units as well).  However, I can rule that possibility out: other units in the formation were unaffected.

Still not satisfied, I checked the QB map in the Scenario Editor.  All "Friendly Direction" parameters were correct for the battle.  I then created a scenario file using the same map and parameters and purchased the same units on both sides.  I then placed the exact same German teams from the same platoon from the same company etc that I had purchased in the QB in the same spots and attacked them with the same infantry (US paras).  Incredibly (or maybe not so incredibly), the same thing happened!  Suicide through the hedgerow gap.

Even better: I have created a scenario file (TEST GAP.btt) using the same QB map with all units in place.  All you need to do is load the scenario file, play it as a turn-based Hotseat (or SP Germans) and just press Go for both sides, no need to give any orders.  The units will start shooting and exchanging fire immediately.  You should see this behaviour with your own eyes occur within the first minute of battle:

TEST GAP.btt

So what is Battlefront's official stance on what appears to be on this undesirable TacAI induced behaviour?

1. "What issue?" (no response/acknowledgement)
2. "Nothing to see here, working as designed"(if so please explain)
3. "Yeah, can't fix it, too bad, sucks for you though"
4. "Wow, looking in to it, hopefully find a fix, keep you posted"

FWIW, I have forfeited that H2H QB I am playing.  I can't afford to have that kind of thing happen and take those kinds of cheap loses and just continue playing regardless, let alone think it won't happen again.  I think for now I am regretfully going to just avoid playing any CMBN (or at least anything with that hedgerow terrain) until this issue is resolved.

[PIATpunk]

nice work.  It was eventually acknowledged by Steve but no patch forthcoming - I expect nothing until well after the new RT module is released given how things move these days.

[AlexUK]

I'm not playing anything with bocage until resolved. Hopefully we can get an update soon. 

 

Thankfully that still leaves quite a lot. 

Edited April 29, 2020 by AlexUK

[RockinHarry]

Bits of toying around with @Lt Bull ´s TEST GAP battle today. Results for me are the same as reported. After bits of experimenting I came to a somewhat unexpected "solution" (or hint for debugging).

By use of Instant Commands button "Pause", I set all forward defending german units to Pause mode (“Pause for further orders”). This in setup phase, before hitting Go. Surprisingly during execution phase this nailed the german units in place (despite heavy suppression). Next command phase showed that various evade commands (incl. those forward through bocage) were plotted by the TacAI, but not executed. This also allowed seeing the TacAI´s intended evade moves (fast into "best" cover and face toward apprehended threat), as otherwise the WP´s would be gone (all PTroopers KIA/WIA = WP deleted).

Now what the manual (p. 62) says on Instant Command "Pause":

“Pause for further orders”

PAUSE - instructs the unit to temporarily halt all active orders and wait. This is the
equivalent of yelling “Halt”. This button is a toggle, and by pressing it again,
the unit is ordered to resume what it was doing.

Interesting that Pause also works for orders not yet given, particularly those from the TacAI (evade). Always assumed it works for user given movement commands only.

So maybe someone likes to test/repeat the procedure? Load TEST GAP.btt, do nothing but clicking "Pause" button for german units and hit GO.

[Lt Bull]

6 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

...toying around with @Lt Bull ´s TEST GAP battle today....Interesting that Pause also works for orders not yet given, particularly those from the TacAI (evade).

@RockinHarry, that really is an amazing discovery/revelation. Great work. It's incredible the Pause order even effects all future TacAI orders like the "evade towards enemy" order being discussed.

If you think about it then, the Pause order could possibly be used as a "not one step back"/no retreat command to prevent the TacAI for executing ANY "self-preserving" evasive actions when a unit reacts to the enemy.  Note that if the "self-preserving" orders issued by the TacAI are indeed valid and likely to increase the survivabilty of the unit if executed (as opposed to executing the "suicidal" kind of "self-preserving" orders being described), use of the Pause order under those circumstances to prevent any evasive orders may result in the unit suffering casualties in situ as a consequence, equivalent to those it may otherwise have suffered if the TacAI instead executed the suicidal "evade towards enemy" orders being highlighted in this thread.

In short, using the Pause command to prevent the "evade towards enemy" TacAI response from happening in situations where the TacAI would instead issue a legitimate "evasion" order (typically breaking LOS towards cover/away from enemy/enemy fire) may result in the same deadly outcome as the situation the player is trying to avoid.

Regardless, knowing the Pause order prevents any evasive TACAI orders (legitimate good ones or the suicidal bad ones being highlighted) from being excuted (but not issued!) is very intersting in itself.  Being able to actually "see" the TacAI created waypoints that were issued but not executed is equally interesting and of value trying to understand and diagnose what is going on.

Did you notice if the Pause command prevents actual units that break from routing away?  I imagine not.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Lt Bull

[Freyberg]

1 hour ago, Lt Bull said:

...
Did you notice if the Pause command prevents actual units that break from routing away?  I imagine not.

Once they get panicked, they forget all orders, including Pause.

I often use Pause for units giving suppressing fire, to keep them from moving and leaving the attacking unit without support, but it's very much a double-edged sword - if they start taking enemy fire, they will stay in place right up until you lose control of them, if there are any left by then.

The other good time to use Pause is if the troops have good cover (such as behind a wall) and retreating would leave them exposed.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Freyberg

[Lt Bull]

3 hours ago, Freyberg said:

Once they get panicked, they forget all orders, including Pause.

OK, thought so. Really interesting to hear how and when you use the Pause command.  Might have to consider it a key command in instances like you mention, or when "cowardice will not be tolerated".  Does the Pause command in any way affect commands like Fire At Target/Briefly Target, or even say the Face command or is it really only restricted to proper movement commands?

[Freyberg]

1 hour ago, Lt Bull said:

OK, thought so. Really interesting to hear how and when you use the Pause command.  Might have to consider it a key command in instances like you mention, or when "cowardice will not be tolerated".  Does the Pause command in any way affect commands like Fire At Target/Briefly Target, or even say the Face command or is it really only restricted to proper movement commands?

Well, sometimes morale (or perhaps a bug?) will cause units to forget target commands even before panicking. I've noticed this with Pause, but it's probably just that an un-paused unit (this is typically mortars and MGs) would have displaced anyway.

The only other side-effect is that they seem to be less willing to give buddy aid, but since that can be quite erratic anyway (which I wouldn't consider to be a bug), it's probably just 'confirmation bias', as the psychology students say...

[c3k]

On 4/29/2020 at 12:28 AM, Lt Bull said:

So what is Battlefront's official stance on what appears to be on this undesirable TacAI induced behaviour?

1. "What issue?" (no response/acknowledgement)
2. "Nothing to see here, working as designed"(if so please explain)
3. "Yeah, can't fix it, too bad, sucks for you though"
4. "Wow, looking in to it, hopefully find a fix, keep you posted"

 

 

4. 

[coachjohn]

I posted this about 6 threads down - “Bug with upgrade” (It also happens behind walls and in buildings I goin a message from a couple of guys who quit playing ww2 scenarios and a couple of hard cores saying - live with it. (These are the same guys who bitch if you knock any thing about the game)

Apparantly it’s been posted and reported numerous times with no reply from BF management - happens every time from them - if they can’t make money - so be it. (If I had new modules coming out - I’d fix the current problems before release so people buy it - just my thoughts)

As is - WW2 is unplayable BN especially. I’ll try the pause option though.

Really wanted to buy all the modules for ww2 - I have BN and SF and SF 2 but can’t as is.

 

 

 

[Bubba883XL]

its a version 4 bug i think has been said, i've got upgrades waiting but won't until this is sorted

[Erwin]

I think many CMBN fans simply install the game but not the latest update which seems to be where the problem started.  I find updates are often very subtle and I rarely notice significant improvement - it's usually that some unit is missing or some graphic anomaly is fixed.   So, play should be fine with earlier versions.

[RockinHarry]

13 hours ago, Lt Bull said:

OK, thought so. Really interesting to hear how and when you use the Pause command.  Might have to consider it a key command in instances like you mention, or when "cowardice will not be tolerated".  Does the Pause command in any way affect commands like Fire At Target/Briefly Target, or even say the Face command or is it really only restricted to proper movement commands?

 

12 hours ago, Freyberg said:

Well, sometimes morale (or perhaps a bug?) will cause units to forget target commands even before panicking. I've noticed this with Pause, but it's probably just that an un-paused unit (this is typically mortars and MGs) would have displaced anyway.

The only other side-effect is that they seem to be less willing to give buddy aid, but since that can be quite erratic anyway (which I wouldn't consider to be a bug), it's probably just 'confirmation bias', as the psychology students say...

 

From my current experience with Instant Command  Pause it works as follows:

Individual soldiers are nailed to their current position within an AS´s 8x8m node grid. Any action requiring a single (or more) soldiers to relocate within that AS in order to execute a particular command, won´t move and participate. That can be "target arc", "target at" and "face". This then is oftenly indicated by a single soldiers "Waiting" state. Same for random medic selection. If by chance a potential medic is not farer away than 1m from a WIA and the TacAI selects him, buddy aid can be initiated. Otherwise another randomly selected guy farer away (>1m) won´t move and changes to "waiting".

None of that prevents single soldiers to react to changing circumstances, like spotting and shooting enemies if coming into LOS/LOF. They just don´t change positions and do everything applicable from current ones (incl. going to prone/hide, reload etc.)

I haven´t seen any shaken or broken units move away if Pause was commanded before the morale change to the worse. In orders phase these units then won´t show the "Pause" state in effect. But if rallied to a better state, it shows it still is.

So it´s left to a player to effectively "unhinge" some the TacAI abilities and there´s both pros and cons. Currently I find preventing (or delay correcting) high risk evade moves is most beneficial. Not just the "evade forward" ones but also many the other highly irrational TacAI choices. "Evade" needs more than just debugging and IMHO should be given a major overhaul.

 

[Lt Bull]

8 hours ago, Bubba883XL said:

its a version 4 bug i think has been said, i've got upgrades waiting but won't until this is sorted

Hi Bubba, I am curious to know what happens if you try running the test save file.  How do the infantry respond on your non-version 4 install?

[Lethaface]

21 hours ago, coachjohn said:

I posted this about 6 threads down - “Bug with upgrade” (It also happens behind walls and in buildings I goin a message from a couple of guys who quit playing ww2 scenarios and a couple of hard cores saying - live with it. (These are the same guys who bitch if you knock any thing about the game)

Apparantly it’s been posted and reported numerous times with no reply from BF management - happens every time from them - if they can’t make money - so be it. (If I had new modules coming out - I’d fix the current problems before release so people buy it - just my thoughts)

As is - WW2 is unplayable BN especially. I’ll try the pause option though.

Really wanted to buy all the modules for ww2 - I have BN and SF and SF 2 but can’t as is.

 

 

 

AFAIK BF have actually confirmed it and said they work on it after the previous patch was released, but they said it wasn't an easy fix because difficult to find out why. Perhaps someone could find that post and sticky it, because this problem gets re-reported very few weeks. It might also help people like you who falsely assume there has been no confirmation/response from BF and start going wild about them being money hungry bastiges or something (my thoughts).

Anyway, apart from bocage, I don't see why WW2 is unplayable. As is modern. So that leaves a lot to play.

The remarks about them not patching without money to be made is uncalled for I think. Just look at the patch history. Many patches apart from paid 'upgrades'.
Also, you can still buy those modules but you choose not to. While you are calling out people that say you should live with it, I think you are creating unnecessary fuss/drama and spreading incomplete information around a real issue with bocage fighting.  

Relax, it will be fixed in the next patch I'd expect. Keep your money nicely in your pocket until then, hopefully inflation won't damage the value in the mean time

Apart from bocage, it's not really effecting much other stuff. I've had my share of bocage already a long time ago, so I'm not really impacted by this bug.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Lethaface

[coachjohn]

It affects any hiding place including walls and buildings - i have experienced both.

 

and i did not see their post - so i missed that. Will wait for upgrade, but apparantly I’m not the only one who put ww2 on shelf for a while - it doesn’t show in sf2 for some reason.  Although i will give pause a look

[Howler]

It's an outlier when it does occur in the modern titles. It's a little too commonplace in CMBN. CMFI a little less so. Can't speak for the other two WWII titles.

A combination of WEGO, close terrain, and HE will cause you misery...

[IICptMillerII]

On 4/30/2020 at 10:22 AM, coachjohn said:

I posted this about 6 threads down - “Bug with upgrade” (It also happens behind walls and in buildings I goin a message from a couple of guys who quit playing ww2 scenarios and a couple of hard cores saying - live with it. (These are the same guys who bitch if you knock any thing about the game)

Apparantly it’s been posted and reported numerous times with no reply from BF management - happens every time from them - if they can’t make money - so be it. (If I had new modules coming out - I’d fix the current problems before release so people buy it - just my thoughts)

I can tell you for a fact that the bug is known, and it is being worked on right now. I get the frustration, trust me. But it is being addressed. I want to see this thing fixed just as much as you do.

2 hours ago, coachjohn said:

and i did not see their post - so i missed that. Will wait for upgrade, but apparantly I’m not the only one who put ww2 on shelf for a while - it doesn’t show in sf2 for some reason.  Although i will give pause a look

There is a bocage-specific bug that only Normandy suffers from at the moment. Again, this bug is known and being worked on. 

[Bubba883XL]

19 hours ago, Lt Bull said:

Hi Bubba, I am curious to know what happens if you try running the test save file.  How do the infantry respond on your non-version 4 install?

happy to try if you wish to send file, i have everything bar the battle pack..

[Bubba883XL]

have faith folks, let them finish the RT module, and they'll get to it..

[Tempestzzzz]

Battle in Normandy but skip fighting in bocage ROFLMAO!

[c3k]

On 4/29/2020 at 12:28 AM, Lt Bull said:

Hello,

I've gone looking for a thread posted maybe a year ago where I was originally made aware of the "evade towards enemy" behaviour (though probably an actual bug) that typically involves infantry behind hedgerows breaking that cover when under fire and running towards the enemy through gaps in the hedgerow (invariably to their deaths) that I can confirm I has been able to reliably replicate when I downloaded and played the saved game that was provided by a user investigating the issue at the time. From what I understand, this issue may only be specific to CMBN and seems to only have appeared after one of the recent patch/engine upgrades. I would have checked the status of the issue and would have posted on that thread there but I have not been able to find the thread curiously enough, hence this new thread.

So I have just started a mirrored CMBN H2H QB on a map that I know several other players have battled over, and I just had a most extraordinary occurence of this "evade towards enemy" behaviour (or whatever you want to call it).  I had three infantry teams lined up along a stretch of hedgerow in a defensive deployment, evenly separated by about 15m.  Behind them is a flat wooded orchard. In front of them is a road, beyond which the terrain gently rises, criss-crossed with some buildings and hedgerows.

On the second turn of making contact with the enemy directly in front of them, returning fire and taking some level of suppression, each team, at some point in the turn, decided to essentially break cover and run sideways along the hedgerow to the nearest infantry-sized gap in the hedgerows and run through the gap in to the open directly towards the enemy where they just get shot up.  When the teams actually break from taking casualties, the surviving pixeltruppen (eg. those that remained in place cowering behind the hedgerow) rout away from the hedgerow/enemy through the orchard behind them.

Units lined up behind hedgerows engaging enemy start of turn:

"Rattled" pixeltruppen running suicide through hedgerow gap to meet their maker:

For the full video experience, you can watch it unfold here:

First and second teams suicide

Third team suicide

I did wonder if I had inadvertently given move orders to my units during the previous orders phase (can happen if you just want to select one unit to issue a move order to but inadvertently double click it whereby also selecting all its subordinates and/or formation level units as well).  However, I can rule that possibility out: other units in the formation were unaffected.

Still not satisfied, I checked the QB map in the Scenario Editor.  All "Friendly Direction" parameters were correct for the battle.  I then created a scenario file using the same map and parameters and purchased the same units on both sides.  I then placed the exact same German teams from the same platoon from the same company etc that I had purchased in the QB in the same spots and attacked them with the same infantry (US paras).  Incredibly (or maybe not so incredibly), the same thing happened!  Suicide through the hedgerow gap.

Even better: I have created a scenario file (TEST GAP.btt) using the same QB map with all units in place.  All you need to do is load the scenario file, play it as a turn-based Hotseat (or SP Germans) and just press Go for both sides, no need to give any orders.  The units will start shooting and exchanging fire immediately.  You should see this behaviour with your own eyes occur within the first minute of battle:

TEST GAP.btt

So what is Battlefront's official stance on what appears to be on this undesirable TacAI induced behaviour?

1. "What issue?" (no response/acknowledgement)
2. "Nothing to see here, working as designed"(if so please explain)
3. "Yeah, can't fix it, too bad, sucks for you though"
4. "Wow, looking in to it, hopefully find a fix, keep you posted"

FWIW, I have forfeited that H2H QB I am playing.  I can't afford to have that kind of thing happen and take those kinds of cheap loses and just continue playing regardless, let alone think it won't happen again.  I think for now I am regretfully going to just avoid playing any CMBN (or at least anything with that hedgerow terrain) until this issue is resolved.

I answered this upstream (4).

FWIW, I'm a beta tester and can see some of the stuff that happens behind the curtain...but am not allowed to speak about what I see.

The reason I'm quoting this, in full, is to highlight the fact that you included a test file showing the problem. (Yes, this is known, but still...) It is extraordinarily helpful to have savegames or test files. Videos showing issues are descriptive, but savegames allow wrenches to be turned on the engine.

Having said all that, yes, this is known. No, I do not have something to say about a fix. (See the above part where I'm not allowed to speak about that stuff.) If it were simple, it would've been fixed already. You're not alone in the frustration from this behavior. It is, thankfully, a very specific case.

Ken

[Freyberg]

4 hours ago, Howler said:

...It's a little too commonplace in CMBN. CMFI a little less so. ...

A combination of WEGO, close terrain, and HE will cause you misery...

I've been playing CMRV (FI) non-stop and exclusively since the upgrade came out and I can't say I've been bothered by this.

Panicked troops do random things - but not so much that it impacts my enjoyment.

[Bud Backer]

Same here. In CMBN too. 

[Erwin]

Normally I would agree.  However, I did stop playing CMBN's "The Road To Nijmegen" campaign as it was too hard to stop my Brits from doing silly things and getting KIA.