Warsaw Uprising?

[Anonymous_Jonze]

Is this going to be included in the new module? I know it's late in the game and Home army soldiers haven't been discussed but I was wondering since it fits in the timeline!

[MikeyD]

This had been brought up and Steve explicitly said no, on I guess you'd call it moral grounds. No playing the German side butchering civilians wholesale. He even limited Partisan fighters to Russian territory (though the TO&E is still in flux).

But there will be sufficient bits-and-pieces for people to cobble together their own scenarios of course. If the monster Berlin master maps get included they can be subdivided and used as generic 'city' maps to fight on. A city block of flats is a city block of flats the world over.

[Anonymous_Jonze]

3 hours ago, MikeyD said:

This had been brought up and Steve explicitly said no, on I guess you'd call it moral grounds. No playing the German side butchering civilians wholesale. He even limited Partisan fighters to Russian territory (though the TO&E is still in flux).

But there will be sufficient bits-and-pieces for people to cobble together their own scenarios of course. If the monster Berlin master maps get included they can be subdivided and used as generic 'city' maps to fight on. A city block of flats is a city block of flats the world over.

Its understandable. The Warsaw Uprising was pretty brutal. I suppose I could simulate battles between the Volksturm and Wehrmacht in an urban setting!

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Pretty sure one (or more) of the modders will look at it.....I'd be willing to have a go at making a map (definitely not all of Warsaw).

I do think the uprising has potential as the basis of a WHIF campaign.....Historically the failure to capture the bridges over the Vistula was critical, but perhaps the player might succeed in capturing those bridges? 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Bulletpoint]

On 4/11/2020 at 4:34 PM, MikeyD said:

Berlin master maps get included they can be subdivided and used as generic 'city' maps to fight on. A city block of flats is a city block of flats the world over.

Travelled much outside the US? 

[Anonymous_Jonze]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

Travelled much outside the US? 

I'd even go to say as far the US a city in New England looks quite a bit different than a city in Southern California.

[Combatintman]

16 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Pretty sure one (or more) of the modders will look at it.....I'd be willing to have a go at making a map (definitely not all of Warsaw).

I do think the uprising has potential as the basis of a WHIF campaign.....Historically the failure to capture the bridges over the Vistula was critical, but perhaps the player might succeed in capturing those bridges? 

Wouldn't need much modding to be honest - mix up some Volkssturm and Partisans by doing the old Axis vs Axis, Axis vs Allies switch around in the unit editor and then plonk them on the beautifully crafted map of Warsaw that you/ or another scenario designer make(s).  The modding could be as simple as changing a Volkssturm armband to a red and white armband.

[MOS:96B2P]

19 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

mix up some Volkssturm and Partisans by doing the old Axis vs Axis, Axis vs Allies switch around in the unit editor

The modding could be as simple as changing a Volkssturm armband to a red and white armband.

+1.  I like the way you think.  

[Sgt.Squarehead]

24 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

The modding could be as simple as changing a Volkssturm armband to a red and white armband.

Sounds like a winner to me.

I've just been looking over some maps of the various stages of the action.  It does seem that a 'Warsaw Master Map' would be the way to go, perhaps 2km on a side, possibly centered on the Victoria Hotel? 

The question then would be how to structure things, should it be historical or should it go the WHIF route described above?  The attack on the bridges took place pretty early in the uprising (17:00, 1st August), so the designer would have a reasonably free hand with any scenarios that followed.  The successful historical attack on the railway station in Praga could be incorporated into the storyline to provide the AK with a bridgehead on the east bank of the Vistula.

With the Vistula bridges under AK control the Germans would be facing a massive problem and the Soviets a golden opprtunity.....How might they react?

Edited April 12, 2020 by Sgt.Squarehead

[MikeyD]

Partisans will be in the game. You'd just have to first purchase them July in Russia then the change the scenario region and date. Volkssturm would be he same, you'd need to first purchase them after February 45(?)  in Germany the switch the region to Central Europe '44.

Scenario-making advice, if you over-think it it'll never get done. It seems the more ambitious a project the less likely it is to ever get completed. Constructing 3-4 city blocks to fight in is well within a normal map maker's capabilities (and it would be to typical CM scenario-fighting scale), constructing an entire city is a daunting task that may take a year to complete (Just ask Ben about that). Then you'd have to subdivide it again to make separate scenarios from, anyway.

About the difference between cities, I was comparing old world urban Berlin street layout to Warsaw, not Taipei to Mesa AZ.

[Combatintman]

23 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Sounds like a winner to me.

I've just been looking over some maps of the various stages of the action.  It does seem that a 'Warsaw Master Map' would be the way to go, perhaps 2km on a side, possibly centered on the Victoria Hotel? 

The question then would be how to structure things, should it be historical or should it go the WHIF route described above?  The attack on the bridges took place pretty early in the uprising (17:00, 1st August), so the designer would have a reasonably free hand with any scenarios that followed.  The successful historical attack on the railway station in Praga could be incorporated into the storyline to provide the AK with a bridgehead on the east bank of the Vistula.

With the Vistula bridges under AK control the Germans would be facing a massive problem and the Soviets a golden opprtunity.....How might they react?

I wouldn't know to be honest - I don't know much more about Warsaw other than the reason Steve knocked it back for the module.  With all of these things beauty is in the eye of the creator - whoever wants a Warsaw scenario/campaign is going to have to put in the research, examine the possibilities of historical vs semi-historical within the capabilities of the engine and then crank it out.

To me it seems that this is just more of 'ooh a battle everyone's heard of - it must be in the game'.  In the same vein I can't for the life of me understand why everyone bangs on about their lives being over because there is no CM game with Stalingrad or Kursk in it.  Massive city meatgrinder (and we all love how troops behave in CM in cities) or massive set piece attack against a set piece defence (a generalisation I admit).  There was a sh1t tin of interesting stuff on the Eastern Front in the time frame of the base game but because there haven't been 20 million books written about them nobody cares - even though there'd be some great scenarios.

To be honest - there is a lot in what @MikeyD was getting at - somebody could probably map one Warsaw city block (or as he said - chop up one from Berlin) - chuck down some modded Volkssturm on one side and SS on the other - call it "Battle of Warsaw" and a lot of players wouldn't give much of a sh1t about the details so long as they got to blow stuff up.

Warsaw isn't something I fancy but I might make a map as part of an H&E type collaborative project if I ever have time.

[sburke]

Heh  I have been working on a Sadr city map for what feels like forever and it is a much simpler project then most.  The dang place is about as grid oriented as one could hope for.  Why do it?  For the same reason I created a Cassino map- I wanted a better visual perspective on it.  I'll release it eventually but may never actually use myself.  Trying to do one for Warsaw with the same attempt at accuracy that LLF did for Ramadi I wouldn't even want to contemplate.

[MOS:96B2P]

5 minutes ago, sburke said:

I have been working on a Sadr city map

+1  That's all I heard .........   Now we get to play the kids in the backseat game ........ is it done yet?  is it done yet?  How about now?  Is it done now? ..........  

[Anonymous_Jonze]

Same I've been working on an Ortona scenario for months now. Will it ever see the light of day? Who knows.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Yeah I've got a few maps on the burner too. 

+1 for Sadr City.....We could even have a crane now! 

[sburke]

5 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Yeah I've got a few maps on the burner too. 

+1 for Sadr City.....We could even have a crane now! 

Not sure I get the infatuation with the crane, but hey whatever floats your boat.  

[DerKommissar]

Has there been any mention of Polish troops being added, with F&R?

[Haiduk]

119 B&W and color(ized?) photos of Warsaw Uprising: https://www.facebook.com/piotr.perykasza/media_set?set=a.1138042689738010&type=3

Some examples is below.

The question about "No playing the German side butchering civilians" is disqussional. Any civilian, who takes a weapon in the hands and put some sort of insignias consider itself like combatant. Also Polish side except own formations in Soviet army also had own partisan wovement - Armia Krajowa (supports legal government in exile) and Armia Ludowa (support pro-communist political forces of Poland).

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Haiduk

[MOS:96B2P]

2 hours ago, Haiduk said:

119 B&W and color(ized?) photos of Warsaw Uprising: https://www.facebook.com/piotr.perykasza/media_set?set=a.1138042689738010&type=3

Some examples is below.

+1.  Interesting photos.  

[Erwin]

7 hours ago, Haiduk said:

The question about "No playing the German side butchering civilians" is disqussional. Any civilian, who takes a weapon in the hands and put some sort of insignias consider itself like combatant.

That ignores the fundamental point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wola_massacre

"From 5 to 12 August 1944, tens of thousands of Polish civilians along with captured Home Army resistance fighters were brutally and systematically murdered by the Germans in organised mass executions throughout Wola. Whole families perished including babies, children and old people. Germans murdered patients in hospitals, killing them in their beds. Doctors and nurses caring for them were also killed. Dead bodies were piled up to be burnt. Before burning, dogs were let loose to check if anybody was still alive. If found alive they were killed on the spot. Black fires from the burning of thousands of bodies covered the whole suburb. Hundreds of women were raped and then killed. Parents were made to watch their children being killed and priests trying to protect those who sought refuge in churches were murdered, some at the altar."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_the_Polish_nation

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Erwin

[Haiduk]

13 minutes ago, Erwin said:

That ignores the fundamental point:

I am about the reflection of Warsaw uprising in the game. The game is just a modelling of combat scenarios and there are no "civilain units" in the game to be butchered. Germans also massacred civilians in USSR, so according to this logic, CMBB/Red Thunder should be banned on the stage of idea... 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Once again I find myself in agreement.....With the usual proviso that a WHIF scenario seems the only way to go. 

The actual uprising was very, very disorganised indeed.....Heroic, but utterly doomed due to lack of coordination and TBH bloody awful planning.

[Erwin]

On 4/11/2020 at 7:34 AM, MikeyD said:

This had been brought up and Steve explicitly said no, on I guess you'd call it moral grounds. No playing the German side butchering civilians wholesale. He even limited Partisan fighters to Russian territory (though the TO&E is still in flux).

 

The thread started as a question re the Warsaw Uprising being simulated and MikeyD's response (above).  Of course one can simulate the massacres in other ways just like we can in CMSF2 or the new Heaven & Earth mod can simulate My Lai.  It simply won't be done by BF as an official offering is the point.

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Why would one simulate that? 

 

[Anonymous_Jonze]

Not interested in simulating a massacre. I'm interested as playing as the home army resisting the occupier. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Anonymous_Jonze