Infantry not using nearest entrance to buildings

[usgubgub]

I have remarked this strange behavior by infantry when fighting in built up areas: for some reason they will only use the "front entrance" to get into a building. 

A section will be positioned at the rear of the building, and ordered to enter it from that side. It may be a few action points away. It will have one or two way-points before the last one right by the building's rear entrance. It will move through those way-points, then, instead of entering the building as ordered, it will go around the whole block, frequently moving into obvious enemy kill zones, while attempting to reach the front of the building to fulfill their last movement order.

 

Is this a bug, and has anyone else noticed it? It drives me nuts.

 

[Warts 'n' all]

This can happen with certain building types. It affected one,  or possibly two of the Dutch buildings introduced in Market-Garden. And unfortunately they were then used in Final Blitzkrieg. If the building is on it's own troops will bypass the door and enter through the side wall. However things can be even worse if the building is used in a row with others, as the troops will exhibit the behaviour that you describe.

Perhaps you could give some examples, i.e.  QB, Stand alone battle, campaign etc

[Bulletpoint]

53 minutes ago, usgubgub said:

Is this a bug, and has anyone else noticed it? It drives me nuts.

It's been driving people crazy for years. If you search on the forum you will find many posts about it.

[Bozowans]

I've been running into this same issue in the Kampfgruppe Peiper campaign in CMFB. In Stavelot there are some very dense areas with narrow streets around the town square where I had this issue. There are obvious doorway textures on the front of some of the buildings, yet these doors apparently don't exist because my squads will ignore them, and instead run around the block to the other side or perhaps go into a building a few doors down and then make their way through from there. 

The buildings affected are in a big row like what Warts 'n' all described, so maybe these are those same Dutch buildings.

I remember running into this issue in CMBN as well, but it's been a very long time and I couldn't tell you what type of building or what mission it was in.

[Warts 'n' all]

Sadly, they crop up on the otherwise brilliant Aachen map too.

[Erwin]

Are you using short waypoints? ie a waypoint right beside the door you want them to enter by?

[Falaise]

it may be enough to identify the buildings precisely! is it independent buildings or modular buildings
logically it must be independent buildings
then it is enough to modify the texture by removing the door or by representing something that blocks it
this will avoid being trapped in full games

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, Falaise said:

it may be enough to identify the buildings precisely! is it independent buildings or modular buildings
logically it must be independent buildings
then it is enough to modify the texture by removing the door or by representing something that blocks it
this will avoid being trapped in full games

No, because these bugs have supposedly already been fixed - but only if you make a new map and place a new building on it. The bug is "baked into" the old scenarios and campaigns.

So if you solve the problem by changing the texture, that will fix the problem in the old campaigns, but then new scenarios will have problems.

At least that's what I understand from reading the forums. I haven't actually tested out if those particular buildings work if you make a new map.

[Oddball-47]

 It has been a ridiculous problem for years. It's not merely annoying. It's often scenario breaker. Seems like it would
be a relatively simple fix. Is there some mystical property(ies) assigned to front versus rear doors? 

  

[Holman]

55 minutes ago, Oddball-47 said:

 It has been a ridiculous problem for years. It's not merely annoying. It's often scenario breaker. Seems like it would
be a relatively simple fix. Is there some mystical property(ies) assigned to front versus rear doors? 

  

It's a map element problem, so the only solution is to remake the scenario using fixed buildings. BTS can't program squads to see doors where they don't currently exist on the map.

If the affected scenario is an official BTS-provided one, it should of course be fixed and officially re-released.  User-made scenarios, however, can only be fixed by the creator (or an imitator).

[Bozowans]

So here is an example of the problem I was talking about on the Stavelot map. 

The problem affects these two white buildings highlighted here, just off the town square:

 

Here is a close-up. As you can see I have men stacked up right in front of the doors. Neither the front nor the rear doors are functional for these buildings, and it seems the only way in is to go through the inside of the adjacent buildings. Also, this is not the only building type affected by this bug. Some of the really narrow buildings on this exact same block are also affected by this, but for now I'll just point out these.

 

Here are the movement orders I have given. I had two separate teams try to enter the buildings side by side at the same time to illustrate the problem.

 

When I hit the big red button, both teams ignored the doors and then started running off to the right:

 

They circled around the corner, made a U-turn, and then entered the adjacent building at the end of the block.

 

Naturally, this meant that they ran right into the bullets of the Americans across the street.

 

So as you can see, it can be a bit of a game-breaking bug when it ends up like that, especially when playing a long campaign where every casualty you take matters. Luckily I save the game at the beginning of every turn anyway just in case something like this happens. I have multiple other examples and screenshots of this happening to other buildings on this same map as well.

[Warts 'n' all]

That building does look familiar, the other one I had in mind has a single round window on the top floor.

[c3k]

9 hours ago, Bozowans said:

So here is an example of the problem I was talking about on the Stavelot map. 

The problem affects these two white buildings highlighted here, just off the town square:

 

Here is a close-up. As you can see I have men stacked up right in front of the doors. Neither the front nor the rear doors are functional for these buildings, and it seems the only way in is to go through the inside of the adjacent buildings. Also, this is not the only building type affected by this bug. Some of the really narrow buildings on this exact same block are also affected by this, but for now I'll just point out these.

 

Here are the movement orders I have given. I had two separate teams try to enter the buildings side by side at the same time to illustrate the problem.

 

When I hit the big red button, both teams ignored the doors and then started running off to the right:

 

They circled around the corner, made a U-turn, and then entered the adjacent building at the end of the block.

 

Naturally, this meant that they ran right into the bullets of the Americans across the street.

 

So as you can see, it can be a bit of a game-breaking bug when it ends up like that, especially when playing a long campaign where every casualty you take matters. Luckily I save the game at the beginning of every turn anyway just in case something like this happens. I have multiple other examples and screenshots of this happening to other buildings on this same map as well.

Outstanding job showing a specific example.

I'll take this and post it as a bug.

FWIW...this has been a pita to find examples.

1. The game will sometimes make a door blocked if the building has been damaged. There is no explicit feedback to the player that this has occurred. 

2. As mentioned by others in this thread, there were some specific buildings that had the visible door in a different location than the CODED door. The known examples of those in official scenarios have been fixed. Once a building is set and the scenario is "baked", then no updates will fix it. The scenario has to be opened, the offending building removed, then replaced, then the scenario can be "re-baked". (BFC has fixed the buildings...but they cannot "unbake" your scenario.)

3. In order for this to get fixed, we need examples like the one here. Showing the map and showing the building. It can now be replicated and reported.

4. See point 3, above. There must be a save and/or a specific example like this one. If beta testers cannot replicate it and send it on to Charles, it cannot be fixed.

I'll send this one in today.

FWIW, that does NOT meant that there will be an immediate fix.

(Yes, I've felt the frustration from this issue. The voluntary suspension of disbelief gives me some options to "explain" this: the door LOOKS good, but has debris behind it (for damaged buildings); the previous occupants have barricaded the door; the wily Dutch have PAINTED the door on the facade to better make the industrial building blend in to its residential neighbors.)

My .02: I'd prefer to have the movement orders be SUSPENDED if the entry cannot be performed through the side of the building that the movement path crosses. The cost would be borne by the need to explicitly path every building entry. (A corollary would be to allow window entry.)

[Wicky]

Quick Question - what speed are they trying to enter Fast, Quick or Move? as that can have an effect on gaining entry.

The faster and more men through a doorway can be likened to filling an egg cup with a fire hose.

Edited April 4, 2020 by Wicky

[Bulletpoint]

8 hours ago, c3k said:

2. As mentioned by others in this thread, there were some specific buildings that had the visible door in a different location than the CODED door. The known examples of those in official scenarios have been fixed. Once a building is set and the scenario is "baked", then no updates will fix it.

 

8 hours ago, c3k said:

I'll take this and post it as a bug.

As that example was from the official KG Peiper campaign, will reporting this as a bug fix the problem?

I assume you might fix the underlying problem with the offending building, but people will still find the bug when they play that campaign? Because they will still have the faulty version sitting on their harddrive...

Edited April 4, 2020 by Bulletpoint

[Warts 'n' all]

9 hours ago, Wicky said:

Quick Question - what speed are they trying to enter Fast, Quick or Move? as that can have an effect on gaining entry.

The faster and more men through a doorway can be likened to filling an egg cup with a fire hose.

In the example posted they are moving "Quick" (yellow line). I have found in both Market-Garden and Final Blitzkrieg that neither movement speed or unit size makes any difference. Nor does any previous damage to the building as @c3k suggested.

I ended up being wary of such buildings, and only using "Hunt" or "Slow" to enter them. Or avoiding going into them altogether. Which luckily in the case of the Aachen campaign didn't cost me.

[Falaise]

I tested the building by putting it on a card
it works on new versions
if you edit the card you remove the building and put it back, will it not work ?

[Bulletpoint]

11 hours ago, Falaise said:

I tested the building by putting it on a card
it works on new versions
if you edit the card you remove the building and put it back, will it not work ?

Yes, that would work, but it is not possible for us players to open and edit the battles inside a campaign.

[c3k]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

Yes, that would work, but it is not possible for us players to open and edit the battles inside a campaign.

If BFC fixes this particular building, the process would be something like this:

1. BFC fixes the building

2. BFC will remove the bad building from the campaign and then insert the fixed building. This will create a fixed campaign.

3. BFC will announce a patch.

4. The player will download the patch...which will include the fixed campaign.

2 Edits:

A: I am not a BFC spokesman. I am just a volunteer Beta Tester. Nothing I've written can be construed as being BFC's official position.

B: You can see how difficult it is to find each example of this problem. Just because the building gets fixed for FUTURE building placements, does nothing for any EXISTING implementations of the "bad" building. Every scenario that ever had that building placed before it got fixed, has to have the building removed, replaced with the fixed building, and then saved ("baked in") and THEN redistributed. Hence the reason why BFC will only touch the official scenarios.

Edited April 5, 2020 by c3k

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, c3k said:

If BFC fixes this particular building, the process would be something like this:

1. BFC fixes the building

2. BFC will remove the bad building from the campaign and then insert the fixed building. This will create a fixed campaign.

3. BFC will announce a patch.

4. The player will download the patch...which will include the fixed campaign.

 

1 hour ago, c3k said:

Every scenario that ever had that building placed before it got fixed, has to have the building removed, replaced with the fixed building, and then saved ("baked in") and THEN redistributed. Hence the reason why BFC will only touch the official scenarios.

I was not aware BFC updated this bug in the official scenarios and campaigns. What I read previously was that they would only fix it going forward.

 

1 hour ago, c3k said:

B: You can see how difficult it is to find each example of this problem.

Not really? Wouldn't it be safe to say that all instances of this particular building in all scenarios made before the fix would be bugged?

Once you're opening up the scenario for fixing the building in that location, it shouldn't be much more work to do a quick flyover and see if there are any of the same type of building elsewhere on the map... and then fix those at the same time.

[General Jack Ripper]

On 3/31/2020 at 7:37 AM, usgubgub said:

frequently moving into obvious enemy kill zones,

They may be obvious to YOU, but if the unit in question has no contact markers then it is not obvious to THEM.

Please feel free to enclose some screenshots or video of the incident in question.

[General Jack Ripper]

On 4/4/2020 at 6:53 AM, c3k said:

3. In order for this to get fixed, we need examples like the one here. Showing the map and showing the building. It can now be replicated and reported.

This. For the love of god.

[c3k]

8 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Not really? Wouldn't it be safe to say that all instances of this particular building in all scenarios made before the fix would be bugged?

Once you're opening up the scenario for fixing the building in that location, it shouldn't be much more work to do a quick flyover and see if there are any of the same type of building elsewhere on the map... and then fix those at the same time.

Let's say YOU made a scenario 7 years ago and put it online. It had a "bad" building. How are you going to contact all the folks who downloaded your scenario and tell them that it needs to be fixed?

How many repository owners will open every map and see if there's an offending building? (I think the total number of buildings with this type of error numbers about 4 or so. <- Totally going off memory for that number.)

How many folks who downloaded a scenario will download the UPDATED (and fixed by whom?) scenario?

How many maps have been included in official BFC releases? (Yes, Quickbattle maps DO count.) 

That's why it's far more than "it shouldn't be much more work to do a quick flyover". Facade changes? Texture differences? Ugh.

It seems like it would be A LOT of work. I cannot even guess the number of man-hours needed to look at every building on every map, let alone the permutations of the same building with different textures/facades or adjacency issues.

If it were easy, it would've been eradicated by now.

My .02.

[Bulletpoint]

13 minutes ago, c3k said:

Let's say YOU made a scenario 7 years ago and put it online. It had a "bad" building. How are you going to contact all the folks who downloaded your scenario and tell them that it needs to be fixed?

If I were BFC, I wouldn't need to contact them all, because as you just said, the new version of the campaign would automatically be included next time there is a patch...?

We're mainly talking about the official campaigns here. That's where the real problem lies. Because that's the stuff we can't repair, ourselves. And that's why people keep coming across the same issues in the same campaigns.

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Bulletpoint

[c3k]

@Bozowans

Thanks for the work in your post. I've dug into it and here's a brief synopsis. First, there are TWELVE buildings in Stavelot with that issue.

The issue is that the door is NOT where you see it. Yeah, that's a problem. Instead it is next to the shown location, but around the corner. In an isolated building that may not be too much of a problem (there'd have to be a specific circumstance where that would be a tactical issue, e.g., an enemy ready to shoot at the glimpse of men coming around the corner). However, in a rowhouse situation, well, the men have to run all the way around...as you've shown.

Here's a picture of what the problem is:

 

Regards,

Ken