Sequoia Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Remember, Eisenhower once worked for MacArthur. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StieliAlpha Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 On 2/2/2020 at 5:51 PM, BluecherForward said: This is such a fascinating period or warfare - and history. Enormous leaps in technology, equipment, and tactics; plus such a variety of forces and organizational types. Would love to see a re-working of CMAK. There are many such discussions or „wishes“ in the forum. The short answer to your post is, IIRC: CMAK was sales wise no success, so BFC decided not to go this way again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 3 hours ago, danfrodo said: But Montgomery's insane egotistical tirades -- how did Eisenhower punch knock his teeth out? Seriously? That's how an American talks about one of his respected and brave brother-in-arms? Montgomery was a very skilled and intelligent general. There's not much glory for him nowadays due to the inflated American ego with regard to WW2, but especially you Americans should pay him more respect than you usually do. Don't get me wrong, I like Americans, really do, but the way some of you guys are looking at history nowadays... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) System kept hanging and now I seem to have one thousand posts... Edited February 5, 2020 by Aragorn2002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) Double post Edited February 5, 2020 by Aragorn2002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) Double post Edited February 5, 2020 by Aragorn2002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) Double post... Edited February 5, 2020 by Aragorn2002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) Double post... Edited February 5, 2020 by Aragorn2002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) Double post. Goddamned...Can someone please remove them? Edited February 5, 2020 by Aragorn2002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimpleSimon Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, danfrodo said: But Montgomery's insane egotistical tirades -- how did Eisenhower punch knock his teeth out? How did he put up with Patton assaulting an American servicemen or Bradley's childish temper tantrums all the time? He was mindful of the fact he was the boss of all these men and that he had to be responsible for his staff, which meant among many things that he had to be fair. Montgomery was an arrogant egomaniac but can you find a General for me in all of history who wasn't? Compared to the equally boisterous qualities of many of his equally famous peers Montgomery was not all that much worse in either the social or professional sense. The Press was a major factor back in 1940 and you had to factor it in since the war effort was a taxpayer funded thing directed by civilian governments in London and Washington. Montgomery pandered shamelessly to inflate his importance to be sure but plenty of his stardom was in fact promoted by Churchill who was rather well known for demanding his Generals prioritize the British Empire's prestige over sound strategy. Montgomery was the media's poster child for British Generalship during the war but for good reason. He was reassuring, charming, and confident and that counted for quite a lot, not only to the press but also to subordinate staff looking for their boss to set an example. He was a star baby, no less than the other big actors trying to grab the spotlight of the war, MacArthur, Patton, Bradley, Clark, yes even the German Generals Rommel, Guderian, Manstein etc. These guys didn't become Generals for being modest that's for sure. Which is a shame because in fact the best Generals on both sides of the war are frequently the ones you didn't hear all that much about. Eisenhower could only underline the value of guys like Simpson, Patch, Gerow, Truscott in a report while the war was winding down while i'm not sure the British even thanked Auchinleck or Wavell or Leese. Today's pop media has done very little to deflate the drama around any of the war's biggest personalities like Patton or Montgomery, in some ways its made things worse by asking honestly silly questions like "who's strategy was better" when strategy wasn't up to them. EDIT: To add, probably the angriest Eisenhower ever got was over the recalcitrance of an Admiral who wasn't even under his command, French Admiral Jean Darlan and his foot dragging over surrendering Vichy North Africa. Poor Ike actually yelled that he "needed a good assassin" at one point openly to his staff while smoking whole packs of Camels from the isolation of Gibraltar while what seemed like Darlan's ego was putting the entire invasion at risk. In the end ironically Darlan was assassinated but the crisis had passed by then. This event was not a proud moment for the Supreme Allied Commander who appeared to have lost his nerve, but such was the nature of the Invasion of North Africa that the Americans were totally new at all of this and there were problems top-to-bottom. Even Eisenhower had things to learn after all... Edited February 5, 2020 by SimpleSimon 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danfrodo Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 8 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said: Seriously? That's how an American talks about one of his respected and brave brother-in-arms? Montgomery was a very skilled and intelligent general. There's not much glory for him nowadays due to the inflated American ego with regard to WW2, but especially you Americans should pay him more respect than you usually do. Don't get me wrong, I like Americans, really do, but the way some of you guys are looking at history nowadays... Hang on my friend Aragorn2002, I have plenty of disdain for american leaders also and praise for other brits (Air Chief Tedder was brilliant!). Monty is intelligent and skilled, like you said, but he was also impossible to work with and in September 44 made one of the great military blunders of the war. Having said that, there's plenty of americans I hate more than Monty -- the air force general who refused to bomb parallel to the beaches in normandy and in operation cobra is one (what was his name?). MacArthur I detest, though mostly for his insanity in Korea. Admiral King's refusal to use convoys? And Ike did slap down Patton for a while. But point well taken, it's easy for me to take shots at Monty while ignoring his big, solid victories. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerKommissar Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) I'd like to see a North Africa module for Fortress Italy. Most of the factions AND equipment are already there. I would like for less families, and more modules for existing families. Giving each game more stuff to play with. Not sure how this would look on the software side. From what I understand, maintaining a large number of families is a bottleneck. Hopefully, CM3 will be one family, one love. 2 hours ago, SimpleSimon said: Eisenhower could only underline the value of guys like Simpson, Patch, Gerow, Truscott in a report while the war was winding down while i'm not sure the British even thanked Auchinleck or Wavell or Leese. Today's pop media has done very little to deflate the drama around any of the war's biggest personalities like Patton or Montgomery, in some ways its made things worse by asking honestly silly questions like "who's strategy was better" when strategy wasn't up to them. Here, here. Growing up, I was taught that Monty rescued the Allied situation in North Africa. Wavell and Auchinleck were seen as tired, dusty, and obsolete generals, that had let the situation deteriorate to a fiasco. Yet, it seems that they sowed the seeds for victory at El Alamein. Now, I hold Wavell in high esteem. After a bit of reading on Market Garden, I do question Montgomery's decision making. All this being said, all these great generals and marshals (including Zhukov) were just men. During the war, propaganda made them seem as titans -- after the war, as legends. In reality, they sometimes made uninformed decisions. Often, got involved in sticky politics. Right place, right time. Wrong place, wrong time. Reality is very complex, and it's hard to attribute "good" or "bad" without a specific context. My favourite US general of WW2 happens to be George Marshall. I don't think he won a single battle. Edited February 5, 2020 by DerKommissar 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 10 minutes ago, danfrodo said: Hang on my friend Aragorn2002, I have plenty of disdain for american leaders also and praise for other brits (Air Chief Tedder was brilliant!). Monty is intelligent and skilled, like you said, but he was also impossible to work with and in September 44 made one of the great military blunders of the war. Having said that, there's plenty of americans I hate more than Monty -- the air force general who refused to bomb parallel to the beaches in normandy and in operation cobra is one (what was his name?). MacArthur I detest, though mostly for his insanity in Korea. Admiral King's refusal to use convoys? And Ike did slap down Patton for a while. But point well taken, it's easy for me to take shots at Monty while ignoring his big, solid victories. That's a generous answer in the best American tradition. Thanks for that! I guess I'm just trying to say that most, if not all of these men had to carry the burden of a very heavy responsibility and had the lives of many, many soldiers in their hands. I think it was Napoleon who once said that after a lost battle even the drummer boy can tell you how you could have won it. Or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, DerKommissar said: My favourite US general of WW2 happens to be George Marshall. I don't think he won a single battle. Good choice. Personally I also prefer the lesser known generals who did their heavy duty in modesty and silence (and were allowed to do it in that manner). Bradley is another good example. For the British I like Alexander best. Excellent commander. One of my favorite German generals is Dietrich von Saucken. A Prussian warrior in the best tradition. What a remarkable man. Could have avoided Russian captivity, but chose to stay with his men, when the end came in Kurland. Ended up in a wheelchair after being tortured and ill treated as a POW. I'm sure some will just call him a Nazi and a criminal, but for me this man is an example of a man for all seasons. They don't make them like that anymore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_von_Saucken Edited February 5, 2020 by Aragorn2002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danfrodo Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 well, it certainly seems we agree on way more than we don't . I also really like Alexander. How have I never heard of Von Sauken before? Thanks for the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danfrodo Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 and I have to ask about whether these german generals were actually paid? Why could they not afford a proper set of eyeglasses? It seems they could only afford one piece of glass & no frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, danfrodo said: and I have to ask about whether these german generals were actually paid? Why could they not afford a proper set of eyeglasses? It seems they could only afford one piece of glass & no frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluecherForward Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 Aragorn2002 and danfrodo, Have either of you read Carlo D'Este's Bitter Victory? He does not paint a very positive picture of Alexander - indecisive and not in control - at least as far as Operation Husky was concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, BluecherForward said: Aragorn2002 and danfrodo, Have either of you read Carlo D'Este's Bitter Victory? He does not paint a very positive picture of Alexander - indecisive and not in control - at least as far as Operation Husky was concerned. I think during the Sicily operation nobody really was in control. But I must admit I haven't read that book. Edited February 5, 2020 by Aragorn2002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluecherForward Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 The one German General of the Nazi era that comes to my mind - as a man of honor - was Ludwig Beck. We would all do well to remember his courage in the face of tyranny. Too bad the British and French caved in to Hitler over the Sudetenland - there might have been no World War II in Europe...although there would have been bloody civil war in Germany as the military and Nazi's went at it. From Wikipedia: "He increasingly came to rely upon contacts with the British in the hope that London would successfully exert its influence on Hitler through threats and warnings, but he failed. Beck and his conspirators knew that Germany faced certain and rapid defeat if France and Britain helped Czechoslovakia in 1938. Accordingly, they contacted the British Foreign Office, informed Britain of their plot and asked for a firm British warning to deter Hitler from attacking Czechoslovakia. In September 1938, British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain, French Prime Minister Édouard Daladier and Italian dictator Benito Mussolini signed the Munich Agreement, handing the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia to Germany. That ended the crisis and hence Beck's efforts at a putsch." More regarding the plot of 1938 from https://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/triumph/tr-munich.htm "Beck and Halder formed a group of conspirators consisting of several top generals, along with former diplomat Ulrich von Hassell, Admiral Wilhelm Canaris who was Chief of German Intelligence, and Berlin's Police Chief, Graf von Helldorf. They hatched a plot to arrest Hitler the very moment he gave the actual invasion order. According to their plan, Berlin would be sealed off by special Army units to prevent the SS from interfering. Other units, aided by anti-Nazis in the Berlin Police, would seize important government buildings while top Nazis such as Göring, Goebbels and Himmler would be arrested. Assuming this all worked, Hitler would be hauled before a special court and charged with leading Germany toward a military disaster. (my note: and violation of the Weimar Constitution). But there was one big if in this whole scenario. The plan would only work if both Britain and France maintained a belligerent attitude toward Hitler and made it known to the world that they would fight to preserve the little Czech Republic. This would serve to convince the German people that certain defeat awaited Germany if it attacked Czechoslovakia and would justify the overthrow of Hitler." He died a hero after the failed attempt to kill Hitler and save what was left of Germany (physically and morally) in July 1944. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluecherForward Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 10 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said: I think during the Sicily operation nobody really was in control. But I must admit I haven't read that book. That's Este's point, somebody was supposed to be in control - Alexander. Can only recommend this well-researched and well-written work by a retired U.S. Army officer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluecherForward Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 1 hour ago, DerKommissar said: I'd like to see a North Africa module for Fortress Italy. Most of the factions AND equipment are already there. I would like for less families, and more modules for existing families. Giving each game more stuff to play with. Not sure how this would look on the software side. From what I understand, maintaining a large number of families is a bottleneck. Hopefully, CM3 will be one family, one love. These are great ideas! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 If enough people keep showing that there is a demand for an Afrika Korps game it's likely it will be considered by BF. That's how CMSF2 came about as once upon a time CMSF2 was also "off the table". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attilaforfun Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 I'm pretty sure that the 50 posters here will buy whatever is produced. I will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, Attilaforfun said: I'm pretty sure that the 50 posters here will buy whatever is produced. Let's hope that for every poster here, BF can rely on another 100+ customers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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