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Well.. all I know is my reply which you quoted was tongue in cheek.. can't say the same for yours.  I for one feel extremely lucky that the CMx2 series exists in as many forms as it does. B

The only thing worse than 1940s Nazis is a present day Nazi. One might argue the populace 80 years ago were na√Įf about just what sort of monsters they were supporting. You can't make that argument now

So the British Ministry of Defense is subsidizing me playing w my toy soliders & tanks?  And all I have to do for this is wait a little longer for the new release?  I am considering this a win for

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12 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

Great post @Macisle - these passages resonated powerfully with me

If memory serves well, Market Garden, with its intense urban fighting, did force a number of major improvements. From the top of my head, the ability of using infantry AT weapons from inside buildings was introduced at that time, as well as other subtle changes in the AI behaviour. I would expect that whatever is the heuristic that governs the selection of the behaviour of units breaking contact with the enemy is reviewed. Even if the TacAI just randomly selected between the current "wandering" behaviour and the more conservative "closest AS between us and direction of incoming fire" would be a better strategy (in statistical terms at least).

I think it is fair to say that there lots of little features in CMx2 that were introduced, but never were revisited to respond to feedback. Definitely, due to lack of programming manpower. For the better I think, the strategy to develop this games was to go all Eisenhower, broad and shallow.

AI orders for Area Fire is one example, the Iron mode for FOW is another one that has been in the series since 2011 and nobody can't still to this day say what are exactly the gameplay effects other than introducing a vague sense of awareness of the limited perception your units have of the battlefield. The other feature that comes to mind are the underlays for map making: still only accepting BMP format with finicky settings, that needs to have a very specific name and in an obscure folder.

We're lucky that CMx2 exists... there's no doubt of that. I will just share the following, and I am not stirring the pot, just sharing some perspective.

On another game that I am part of the beta testing, the scenario developers (all volunteers) decided that they had had enough coping with the spartan facilities offered by the scenario editor when it came to data export and import, map edition, consistency checking. What they started doing was basically the equivalent of a strike: no QOL improvements, no content. Guess what happened - the editor has been massively improved and in a consistent and constant pace since.

On yet another game whose development I was part of, for many many years no improvements were done on basic QoL elements. As a result, apart from one very particularly staunch scenario designer, countless projects had been started and they died off as the requests for improvements on the front-end and back-end of the game went mostly unheeded for years. Some elementary work was done, and that was enough to reactivate the interest of those volunteers that would have provided most of the content for those games.

I think too that CMx2 is very lucky to have around it a community of volunteers that are so dedicated as to cope with primitive scenario design tools and engine limitations that make painful or difficult to realize their vision. Without those volunteers, these games would be as dead and done as Norman Bates' mum :) (what an image @Sublime, now I can't get it off my head!).

Thank you, I think thats first compliment Ive ever received from you which is flattering because youre very smart. I dont even try to follow your posts if maths involved ūüėÉ

Anyways you are correct. Market Garden added stuff.  But still so many problems. you cant target diagonally some units in buildings. not fortified houses. no basements. no sewers.  no shooting around corners.  AI tendency to do crazy stuff etc.

Too many people are being really sillly about this (not you) OBVIOUSLY if I have been a member since Y2K and buy or get gifted all the games I must love them.¬†¬† Kinda no BS.¬† but I also tire of people seeing any criticism or hopes for a new engine as some how being a traitor.¬† It gets a tad ridiculous.¬† BFC has been good taking lots of suggestions. My favorite and Im sure others suggesred it, but I know BFC replied to my suggestion EARLY on in BN after release that MG byrsts were too mechanical. always 3 rounds or 5. I asked it to be randomized. it was. so when your mg fires 5 rounds then 3 then 9 think of me for that little nugget Ill claim as my idea ūüėÉ

I get a little irritated  ( maybe overly so ) at someone suggesting the problem is me and not the game and I was just being in a bad mood. I havent posted here really in a year. I didnt come back to bitch about CM LOL.  And I still say - and no one will convince me otherwise- that everyone should be allowed their opinion, but its especiially ridiculous to not read my opinion for the simple fact that Ive perhaps thousands of CM hours and hundreds of PBEM games in both series of CM.  Ive played since CMBO open beta.  theres not many people whove been around since the Fionn Kelley vs (was it hardenberg) AAR where I fell in love seeing them cross a river frozen etc..   I may not be the brightest or no crap about programming, but Ive been hear to watch and support BFC for longer than some new players have been alive now.

Im just telling people the truth. I send people here a lot. Seriously like by the dozen every month or so Id guess.  Im almost rapey in how hard I push CM on anyone who likes history.  And Im telling you guys what the non hardcore gamers who got money and coud be hardcore but first have to be sold on CM say.  they love it, but 5 years ago Id get snarky comments about the graphics, or stupid AI behavior in towns.  I told them patience etc. Graphics arent everythimng. and they arent. but lets be real. if you dont care a fig for graphics you can play a board game or a highly abstracted war game.  IF you dong give a fig for graphics CMx1 is ALL you ever need frankly.  CMx2s BIGGEST draw for me was 1:1 infantry modelling.  That sold me on it totally.  However now, 9 years after BOs release and about 14 after CMSF first dropped - I send people and the first serious wargamers have come back and said "nope. modded like you said, cant deal with X stupidity (lots people want urban fighting.  its horribly unrealistic at times, or gets ridiculous) and more and more each month "nope. the graphics are just too old. its immersion breaking/too old looking etc"

And I have to admit... looking at some of the screens I was excited *for the new units* but secretly thought to myself *ehh ugly screenshots* heresy. But being honest.. yes.  Besides many new features that BFC has admitted cannot be done without a new engine, the old one is long in the tooth. we have to ask ourselves - how much more can they modify before its done and they can do no more? Seriously. As it is any new feature breaks something else now half the time...  A new engines needed.  Thats my firm opinion. Im not going to be convinced otherwise.

IF they dont make it- shame but... I literally have played these games since age 14 and had a copy at 15. I turn 35 on Friday.  I got my 500 or so I spent on BFCs moneys worth believe that

then the editor sir -  thats an element I dont even deal with.  AT ALL . You guys have your own battles to fight. I dont think many new customers.. they come here and say like 'oh stop complaining' I freely admit Im not a beta tester for BFC.  And for BoS I was, not sure my status now.  But uhh... these people saying stop complaining to us 'laymen' do they realize that for example all the scenarios are generally made for free by volunteers?  I could be wrong but I think most of the campaigns in CMx2 the designer wasnt paid. I could be wrong. I dont mean BFC screwed them- I mean they literally are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.  @JonS or @Paper TigerI know this is pretty personal  - but are mission makers paid?

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5 minutes ago, Sublime said:

... theres not many people whove been around since the Fionn Kelley vs (was it hardenberg) AAR where I fell in love seeing them cross a river frozen etc..  

It was Fionn vs Martin/Moon. I remember the frozen river but the part that always is the first thing to come to mind was Panzerschreck ambush on the HT.

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8 minutes ago, BFCElvis said:

It was Fionn vs Martin/Moon. I remember the frozen river but the part that always is the first thing to come to mind was Panzerschreck ambush on the HT.


YESS Moon! Thank you. I was reading that AAR september 99. I was a close combat player.  Im hazy on other details but impressed bt all. but I remember the moment I Decided (I was aghast at the 3 man simplification for squads and some other things) was the frozen river detail

The gold demo sealed an already decided thing

Hey by the by I heard close combat has made a comeback. remember when the CC main guy used to troll this forum like a child?  I was so disgusted and.. embarrassed for him

CC2 was a masterpiece though. That grand campaign was brilliant. Id give a left nut if BFC could make a campaign like the Close Combat 2 grand campaign.

CC3 not so much but playable and fun to play 12 hrs straight whoole grand camapign online.

CC4 was lame and my last foray

also MICROPROSE IS BACK!!!! YESS!!! Given BoS isnt goonna have four engined planes (it looks sooo bizarre now they moved to western europe and there arent even AI 4 engines)  Id give 250 for MODERNIZED (READ NO NEW FEATURES JUST GRAPHICS UPDATED ETC) version of the B17 Migty 8th release.  I had started my downward spiral into drugs when that came out and never appreciated it fully.  I was watching YT vids of it the other a day and forgive the O/T frankly wondered WTF happened

We had Euro air war and B17 etc. the menus were made to look.. like air fields. B17 did this amazingly well. Briefing room had Recon footage showing flak as plane went over target. It just was so well done.  Id like if they subtracted the fighters from the game. they were unnecessary and that energy would have been better spent improving the B17.

But I was watching YT, and Ive lost all my posessions several times since ITs long gone and It wouldnt be fun playing now as much I suspect because Im spoilt with the graphics and physics on Il2. But I wish game companies went away from these sleek modern looking menus and went back to EAW// B17 menus that looked like you were going to rooms on the base before flight. Briefing room. Squadron COs room. Hanger. ETc.

the fact that I can even discuss this match to you - and I guarantee you theres perhaps 30 people around on this site total, maybe 20, that know what we.re on about, and perhaps 15 actually read the artice in the 90s like I did.

I dont want a medal but someone PM'd me and was a little upset. claimed I was way to hard on the beav- er the new guy.  I disagreed.  I been here a long time. I dont feel I was too hard on the new guy - he basically implied I was just venting and that I needed to get over it - in essence totally dismissing the opinions of someone whose been here 20 years and played all the games . ( didnt own CMAK but played the demo.) I didnt see his sign in date, all I saw was junior member and 21 posts.  again its not a peeing contest  - but I felt it was massively cheeky almost rude to politely say 'ah shutup and sit down' when you have been here perhaps a few months or a year?  As I said,  if someone whose been around as long as me said it maybe Id take it more  to heart. The fact that all the old timers arent flaming me or are agreeing at least in part *speaks volumes*. I dont have the rep of other people in this thread of constantly complaining and I advise people rolling their eyes at my post to take note of that as well. Search my posts. Ive been called a BFC fanboi most my time on this site.  Id be the last one to make **** up or exaggerate CM deficiencies.

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4 hours ago, Sublime said:

Thank you, I think thats first compliment Ive ever received from you which is flattering because youre very smart. I dont even try to follow your posts if maths involved

Thanks for the compliment too - but that doesn't make me to be right about things all the time. Or even half of the time.

There's a natural cycle with games: you love them like crazy, right until you hate them. With other kinds of games, there's a "winning state" - you know you're done with the game. With CMx2 there's no such a thing, but there's a "breaking point" that comes for people at different times. For me it starts when I fly right into one of the "invisible walls" that define the envelope of what is possible with CMx2. Games and simulators are by definition finite in their scope, not something infinite like Star Trek's holodeck. So I must admit it is totally unreasonable to be annoyed by those boundaries. 

Sometimes I bounce back just all right, sometimes it's like a funny smell pervades everything that happens in the game. When I feel like that, diminishing returns set in very quickly, and I have learnt to cut down my CMx2 time to the minimum (not even playing it for weeks, which is weird, as this is indeed the one and only game that I have played continuously since 2011, only War in the East has stood the test of time like CMx2 has). My daughters weren't even born when I was playing this game, I hadn't even met my partner, and they're a big part of my life. It helps that my gaming time budget, on a good week, is about 5 hours! You get really appreciative of time, and it is easy to bail out when you feel you don't get bang for your buck.

 I think that pretty much everyone posting on this thread with a long history with CMx2 at some point or other have decided to "take it easy" and step away from H2H, posting or picking up new stuff put together by BFC & co. Some people come back, some don't. It's natural, and just the way things are.

Happy to read you @Sublime , with your heart on the sleeve approach, just take care mate.

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After reading that last couple of pages of this thread I get the impression that BF are facing an existential crisis of some kind!  Is the end upon us?  Does anyone know?    

I like to think that Charles and Steve are more frustrated by the limitations of the current engine than anyone of us.  But they have to eat and so the life of the current engine continues.  That's a good thing, for something to continue it must first survive...

Anyway, after 20 years, I still visit the forums regularly and buy all of the WWII titles.  Including CMx1, I am in for well over $500 - I think I have gotten my money's worth!  

For me, as I have said (many times) before, my interest is in Germany vs Russia (6 June 41 to 4 July 43) and not much else.  I think Steve feels the same way based on his comments when Barbarossa is brought up.  I wonder why that didn't happened before the Italian campaign was finished - is there really that much interest in that theater?  Saving it for CMx3?  Maybe...

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On 2/29/2020 at 5:57 PM, Battlefront.com said:

Testers get a free copy, or more specifically dozens of free copies (most of which don't work or are incomplete ;) ).  Scenarios and Campaigns are usually built by our testers, sometimes by staff.  Depends.

Sure.  It's been mentioned a little here and there, but we've not made a big deal about it because we really can't say too much about it.  We're making a customized version that includes tools to better integrate CM into an R&D environment.  This can help answer questions like "what if we gave every rifleman a MG, would that impress the chicks more?"  Or do the Brits still say "birds" in this era of Me Too? :)

Seriously, though, there's all kinds of ways Combat Mission can help prove/disprove various theories about weaponry, how they are organized, and how they are used.  Since we don't have security clearance for those sorts of discussions we have to give them the tools to experiment without us being involved.

And no, those features will NOT be coming into your hands.  They're paying for it, they own it (so to speak).

Steve

 

Wow!  That's really cool.  I didn't know anything about this.

Btw, we do say "birds" but it depends on how cockney you are as to whether you'll get away with it! ;)

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On 3/4/2020 at 10:47 AM, danfrodo said:

And why does this always have to degenerate into personal criticisms or conspiracy theories?  They are a small team and simply can't do it all.  Are there actually people here that never worked on teams that had limited resources and had to prioritize?  Had to choose what to do and what to delay? 

It's inevitable when people are passionate about a subject.

If anything, it should be taken as a compliment that Combat Mission is a good enough game for people to get their panties in a twist about it.
Dispassionate mediocrity is the final death knell for a game franchise.

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2 hours ago, General Jack Ripper said:

If anything, it should be taken as a compliment that Combat Mission is a good enough game for people to get their panties in a twist about it.

Dispassionate mediocrity is the final death knell for a game franchise.

+1  THIS!!! 

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On 2/29/2020 at 9:57 AM, Battlefront.com said:

Testers get a free copy, or more specifically dozens of free copies (most of which don't work or are incomplete ;) ).  Scenarios and Campaigns are usually built by our testers, sometimes by staff.  Depends.

And many of us buy a copy anyway... especially if we feel pretty lame about the amount of time we've been able to put in testing etc.... looking n the mirror here...

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Another kinda bone is that CMRT's existing TO&E is getting a major redo.¬† Back when the TO&E was assembled there were a lot of very big gaps in Soviet TO&E research materials and, believe it or not, even German stuff.¬† Remember, 99.9% of the world's population couldn't give a fig about if a K√ľbelwagen in the late 1943 Hampstertruppen Company's mortar platoon had a guy with a rifle, a SMG, or a rubber ducky.¬† The lack of incentives for fame, glory, and profit apparently limits the resources devoted to digging up this sort of stuff.

Unfortunately for all of us, this low level data is critically important to have this depth of information AND to have it be consistent with how things worked in the field.  For example, official US TO&E's references to M3A2 Halftracks as standard equipment would be fine if they were ever produced :D  For some crazy reason we actually care about these details and that means when better information comes up we go back and revise existing game TO&E without hesitation.

For the Soviets things have gotten VERY interesting VERY recently.  The Russians have decided that it's about time they allowed their source materials to be published.  Better still, published on the Internet for free!  NONE of this was available to us back when CMRT was originally under construction.  Well, not in any systematic way and certainly not without someone else's interpretation and sense of what level of detail was important to document.

One very good example of this is the overloading of units with SMGs beyond their original authorized strength.  Based on information we had on hand at the time, and logic of how things worked in other forces, we simply bumped up the number of SMGs in units where appropriate.  Well, turns out that there was an official order from STAVKA to convert one platoon in each company so that it had no normal rifles or carbines, only SMGs and sometimes LMGs and Sniper rifles (where already present).  The remaining platoons remained at roughly authorized levels of SMGs.  Very different than what we had before!

What does this mean for CMRT players?  Whenever we release a Module we release a patch for everybody.  If you don't purchase the Fire & Rubble Module you'll still get all these TO&E updates less any newly introduced equipment (in particular Lend Lease stuff).  If you do purchase the F&R Module you'll get all that plus later versions plus all the new equipment, winter environment, terrain, and whatever else comes along for the ride.

So there you have it... another bone while you patiently wait for preordering.

Steve

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10 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

99.9% of the world's population couldn't give a fig

Very optimistic...  closer to 99.99%  :)

10 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

The Russians have decided that it's about time they allowed their source materials to be published. 

Wonderful development.  Looking forward to the updates.

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11 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

What does this mean for CMRT players?  Whenever we release a Module we release a patch for everybody.  If you don't purchase the Fire & Rubble Module you'll still get all these TO&E updates less any newly introduced equipment (in particular Lend Lease stuff).  If you do purchase the F&R Module you'll get all that plus later versions plus all the new equipment, winter environment, terrain, and whatever else comes along for the ride.

Awesome to see you guys constantly improving, can't wait for the preorder.

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Never doubted that this module will be worth the long wait. As soon as it will be released I will take a couple of days off from work to spend a long weekend in snow and frost. Especially looking forward to the Volksgrenadiere with plenty of Stg 44's and Soviet Lend Lease vehicles. And the 251/22 and Jagdpanzer IV L/70 of course!

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3 hours ago, Sequoia said:

Does this mean the Soviet Submachinegun Companies from Panzerblitz weren't that far off?  :)Of course Panzerblitz gave the Germans submachinegun platoons as well. 

I don't remember what they were so I can't comment :)  The new re-org looks similar to the existing companies in the Cavalry Rgt organization.  It's possible that the Cav TO&E we cribbed from was a later variant that had the SMG allocation orders already baked in, but the others we used were earlier.

3 hours ago, Erwin said:

Very optimistic...  closer to 99.99%  :)

On second thought, that might even be overly optimistic!

Steve

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