Jump to content

Fire and Rubble


BFCElvis

Recommended Posts

 

25 minutes ago, ASL Veteran said:

Okay so the text here says that the second Zug was sent to France and then subsequently withdrawn back to Warsaw which would leave the first Zug in Hungary to be attached to the FHH – well that doesn’t make any sense at all because if the second Zug was sent to France, then it wouldn’t be withdrawn to Warsaw leaving the first in Hungary.  Obviously if the second was sent to France, then the one that was withdrawn to Warsaw was the first Zug not the second Zug which leaves none in Hungary because there was only one Zug of two Sturmtigers sent to Warsaw (one of which was the mild steel prototype).

  😲...nope...the mild steel sturmtiger is the one in Pz.Erst.Abt.500 (the GuBeisem one, wich was used for testing, calibrating the new gun and so) not the ones in 1000 K.p or 1001K.p.

5 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

My point is, someone advocating for inclusion of a rare vehicle (this one or any other one) has to prove two things:

1.  That it was present on a particular front during a particular timeframe

2.  That it engaged in combat

Proving #1 without #2 is pointless.  If #1 was all that was needed then we should include the Maus :D

doubt I could prove with evidences nbr2 in my live...even if it is quite clear that you didn't send monsters like those at the Decebren front for shightseeing...so till here the discusion...enriching somehow...  

By the way, there is some photo over  there showing the Kubinka sturmtiger on the train along the big one in their trip to russia

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Ultradave said:

 

The goal is to use the Schwimmwagon to motor across and get to the exit objective alive. It's an opposed crossing so that group of halftracks is your fire support to soften up a crossing point. You can pick your spot. Keep the Schwimmwagon back at first and use the tracks to take out enough opposition so that you can cross without being blown out of the water. The Russians have some AT weapons so be warned. The tracks are not making the crossing, just the team in the Schwimmwagon.

Here's the plan as stated in the briefing:

 

Dave

Screen Shot 2021-04-25 at 10.30.23 AM.jpg

It just occurred to me reading this thread that it may not be obvious to non-grogs that a Schwimmwagen is an amphibious vehicle that can cross a river without a ford or bridge. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Andrew H. said:

It just occurred to me reading this thread that it may not be obvious to non-grogs that a Schwimmwagen is an amphibious vehicle that can cross a river without a ford or bridge. 

It has "swim" right in the tile. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Andrew H. said:

It just occurred to me reading this thread that it may not be obvious to non-grogs that a Schwimmwagen is an amphibious vehicle that can cross a river without a ford or bridge. 

Well, that’s probable, however, if you open the CMRT Fire and Rubble manual in the game folder, the Schwimmwagen is detailed on page 27 under Unarmored vehicles. It might just be me, but the manual for an expansion to an existing family is always the first thing I look at after downloading the expansion. It helps me to understand what has changed, and new advantages and disadvantages in the expansion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Dan Dare said:

 

  😲...nope...the mild steel sturmtiger is the one in Pz.Erst.Abt.500 (the GuBeisem one, wich was used for testing, calibrating the new gun and so) not the ones in 1000 K.p or 1001K.p.

 

I'm sorry, but you are just simply mistaken or being willfully obstinate here.

 

Quote

 

The status report from the 9th Army on August 20 (Krannhals op cit p 378) confirms that 1000 Sturmtiger Kompanie with two Sturmtigers was included among the units which fought in Warsaw.  It was the first prototype vehicle to arrive in Poland's capital city, together with another such vehicle, sent out before being manufactured on a series production line, with an iron or light steel superstructure.  Just such a vehicle had already been produced toward the end of 1943.  This fact is confirmed by the army group Centre's report 65004/7 with a notation written by Brigadier General Guderian

"To the Army Group, for the purpose of its being put to use in Warsaw: on August 14 dispatched on Tiger with a 38cm rocket firing ramp (test model) which is not suitable for use against anti-tank forces, as it is made of light steel"

 

So Guderian says that the Sturmtigers were prototype vehicles crewed by factory workers and the 9th army report says that two Sturmtigers from Sturmtiger Kompanie 1000 (not 500, not 1001, but 1000) arrived in their area of operations as indicated by the army status report.  Two Sturmtigers at least one of which was the one with 'light steel' armor.  The other one may or may not have had the light steel armor we just don't know because it is unsaid by Guderian so we can't say one way or the other.  TWO STURMTIGERS not THREE.  TWO STURMTIGERS from 1000 Sturmtiger Kompanie as indicated on the official army status report.  TWO.  

Okay, now that we have that out of the way, apparently some Sturmtigers were sent from Warsaw to Hungary.  Since only TWO were sent to Warsaw then those sent to Hungary must have been the same two that were at Warsaw.  Not THREE, and not FOUR, but TWO.  Those two were then sent back to Warsaw and then subsequently sent back to Sennelager in Germany for refitting.    

That should be pretty definitive unless someone wants to say that Guderian was a liar or that the official 9th army status report was wrong.  If someone wants to die on that hill then I don't know what to say about that.  Keep on believing what you want to believe in I guess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

My point is, someone advocating for inclusion of a rare vehicle (this one or any other one) has to prove two things:

1.  That it was present on a particular front during a particular timeframe

2.  That it engaged in combat

Proving #1 without #2 is pointless.  If #1 was all that was needed then we should include the Maus :D

Steve

Schwimmwagen retrofitting in CM:BN, CM:FI and CM:FB confirmed. Excellent News! 😉

Edited by DesertFox
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

Really, are you serious...did I insult sb?...don't think so...and not to AKD or ASL for sure even if i do disagree strongly with their aproach...one cause aproach like "I know better, and you have to prove it" and the other cause just want to proof I'm mistaken...and easy task by the way...and that AKD, who is a living souce on ww2 had proved it  already to me in few days ago...I do seriusly enjoyed the discussion about captured russian smg and ejoyed it a lot...and learned even more.

 

Well ASL seems to have taken no offense and perhaps he is right that it is simply translation/language issues.  If so my apologies.  For reference though for a native english speaker, many of your posts are very aggressive.  Yes that is kind of how internet communications seem to have gone.  Not a good thing in my eyes as to how we treat each other differently when face to face versus this more anonymous medium.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, dbsapp said:

"Out for Schwimm" scenario. 

The goal is to cross the river. However, the bridge is broken and there is no river banks suitable for crossing. AI can't find the path either.

Looks like a bug.  

I managed to cross the river without any problems.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guderian: Panzer Pioneer or Myth Maker? By Russell A. Hart. Washington: Potomac Books, 2006. ISBN 1-57488-810-2

After the Second World War, how the English-speaking world looked at the war was shaped by a number of influential memoirs penned by former German officers. Among the more notable of these were Erich von Manstein's Lost Victories (aka Boy, Was I Brilliant) and F. W. von Mellenthin's Panzer Battles. Few were more influential, however, than Heinz Guderian's Panzer Leader.

Published in Germany in 1951 under the title Erinnerungen eines Soldaten, Guderian's memoir was translated into English and published the following year as Panzer Leader. The book proved remarkably influential in shaping perceptions as to how the German Army created its panzer arm, and Guderian's role in that process. This perception was aided by the publication, especially in the United States, of numerous books on the German Army and Air Force written by people who did not read German, or were unfamiliar with the German document collections at the U.S. National Archives.

Over the past twenty years, however, the image of Guderian as the premier armor theorist in the interwar German Army has been attacked by a number of military historians in this country, including Williamson Murray, James Corum, Robert Citino, and this reviewer. The latest work in this effort is Russell A. Hart's monograph on Guderian. In its essence, Hart's book is a sustained attack on Guderian's reputation as a military theorist, field commander, and, especially, as a memoirist. Hart suggests that, while Guderian was an important armor theorist, he was by no means the only one and that Guderian's stature as Germany's premier armor theorist rested on his self-serving memoir. As a field commander, Hart argues that Guderian's successes from 1939 to 1941 were as much a matter of luck as of skill. Finally, Hart repeatedly shows where Guderian fibbed in his memoir.

In regard to Guderian's relationship with the Nazi regime, Hart suggests that Guderian was less a Nazi than a "Hitlerite." While Guderian was very much an ardent right-wing nationalist, he never bought into Nazi ideology. Rather, he was personally beholden to Hitler, who was supportive of Guderian, and who gave him, like every other German general, sizeable bribes to insure loyalty.

Hart uses contemporaneous documents to show where Guderian was putting forth outright lies in his memoirs. More commonly, he shows where Guderian conveniently forgot to mention any number of things, such as Hitler's bribes, that would have been rather embarrassing, to say the least. The monograph does have its problems. Hart's criticisms at times can be too sweeping. Granted, Guderian's career as a field commander was marked by sheer good fortune. This, however, can be said of just about every successful field commander. Likewise, Hart suggests that Guderian's criticism of the reorganization of German panzer divisions in 1941 has been uncritically accepted by "virtually every military historian." To back this claim, however, Hart cites only one work. This suggests that the book was written in a bit of a hurry.

This monograph is certainly not the definitive biography of Guderian, and I do not think the author had that goal in mind. As a corrective to one of the more mendacious memoirs of the Second World War, Hart's work clearly hits the mark.

Richard DiNardo
U.S.M.C. Command and Staff College
Quantico, Virginia
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, trying to argue that Guderian was a liar to get Sturmtigers into a game is a bit...gamey. :)

Pretty much all the top Nazis/Germans who wrote biographies after the war embellished their role in the war, but why would Guderian lie about such a minor point that only wargamers 70 years later would care about?

Given Guderian’s position as inspector general of the Armored forces and then chief of staff at Hitler’s HQ, I would think he would have first hand knowledge about this.

p.s. - I actually read his book a very long time ago, and unlike many other accounts by former Nazis.....I mean German generals, I thought he came off as very professional.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, as interesting as it might be to argue about how may angles can fit on the point of a pin, the Sturmtiger is still not going into F&R. 

To correct (slightly) what someone said a few pages ago, I never said that if something fired a shot on a front then it would be included.  What I probably said was that was the minimum to even get us to consider it.  As far as we can tell the Sturmtiger saw absolutely no frontline combat on the Eastern Front.  Therefore, it's not going to be included.

Compare this to the US Pershing heavy tank.  A couple were present on the Western Front before the war ended.  Would that be enough to add them?  No.  However, we have documented cases of them being involved in direct tank on tank combat.  Sure, only a handful of incidents, but one of them resulted in knocking out a King Tiger.  That's worthy of note!

Steve

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Well, as interesting as it might be to argue about how may angles can fit on the point of a pin, the Sturmtiger is still not going into F&R.

After all, this isn't War Thunder.  Otherwise we would have the Dicker Max... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

doubt I could prove with evidences nbr2 in my live...even if it is quite clear that you didn't send monsters like those at the Decebren front for shightseeing...so till here the discusion...enriching somehow...  

Let's take a closer look at the AOK 9 records on this Hungarian excursion:

Sturm-Mörser-Kp. 1000 is last shown on AOK 9 list of einsatzbereiten (operational) panzers on Oct. 10, 1944.  

269405877_AOK9StanddereinsatzbereitenPanzerOct1044.jpg.62ada914297e47e89f5f60a9ae9ae5e2.jpg

There is then no mention of Sturm-Mörser-Kp. 1000 in the operational panzer holdings or transport records until Oct. 15, when the company is noted as in transport from XXXXVI Pz.K. to Budapest by train:

465897843_AOK9Oct1544.jpg.010ab8486fb530ad6d579f58c156927a.jpg

However, departure from Warsaw does not happen until the evening of Oct. 17:

25573421_AOK9Oct1844.thumb.jpg.2f939b57fd374c313620e3461cc2a6bc.jpg

Two days after departure, Sturm-Mörser-Kp. 1000 has switched from the Abtransport section to the Zuführung section. It is on the train to Budapest, but will be returned to the Warsaw area:

941005951_AOK9Oct1944.jpg.a32d7ccf595ee3a31304f64b7eb45c44.jpg

The following day the company arrives back in Warsaw at 12:10 a.m.  The entire "Hungarian jaunt" was no more than 52.5 hours.  Today (not 1944, not wartime) the train from Warsaw to Budapest one way takes 10.5 hours. I have serious doubts the company even made it to Budapest before being rerouted back to Warsaw.

830594661_AOK9Oct2044.jpg.3ceb0a3ea6f9dd46f176b689bdbbac17.jpg

Then the next day Sturm-Mörser-Kp. 1000 is back on the operational panzer list, but with one Sturmtiger instead of two: 

1103190711_AOK9StanddereinsatzbereitenPanzerOct2144.jpg.85af6e8d6defeb0fc6849b3cc8aee8c3.jpg

Does this mean that one of the Sturmtigers was lost during the "Hungarian jaunt"? Not necessarily because this is a list of operational panzers, not all panzers.  It's quite possible that one of the Sturmtigers suffered some sort of irreparable mechanical casualty during this period and remained off the operational list until the company returned to Germany Nov. 22. In fact, given the shuttling back and forth, this seems plausible.

Source: NARA T-312 R-348

Edited by akd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Is anybody else really, really, REALLY happy to know that AKD is a Combat Mission beta tester?  If not, you should be :D

Steve

I was smelling something like that... this guy know too much and fight for his right ! 

Nice to see real archives of the 3 Reich with anotations !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Dan Dare said:
Guderian:
 
 
Richard DiNardo
U.S.M.C. Command and Staff College
Quantico, Virginia

Dan make an exeption to the song of PGabriel and Kate Bush...give up ! 😄 

 

...now I m  going to get lynched ! !

 

Edited by JM Stuff
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Well, as interesting as it might be to argue about how may angles can fit on the point of a pin, the Sturmtiger is still not going into F&R. 

To correct (slightly) what someone said a few pages ago, I never said that if something fired a shot on a front then it would be included.  What I probably said was that was the minimum to even get us to consider it.  As far as we can tell the Sturmtiger saw absolutely no frontline combat on the Eastern Front.  Therefore, it's not going to be included.

Compare this to the US Pershing heavy tank.  A couple were present on the Western Front before the war ended.  Would that be enough to add them?  No.  However, we have documented cases of them being involved in direct tank on tank combat.  Sure, only a handful of incidents, but one of them resulted in knocking out a King Tiger.  That's worthy of note!

Steve

We're talking about the lack of Sturmtiger, but what happen with the Pz IVJ latest production? The backbone of the last Panzer Divisions and it isn't in game!!!??!!!
The module is great but that gap is a big disapointment for me, especially when it already should has been in FB.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Andrew H. said:

It just occurred to me reading this thread that it may not be obvious to non-grogs that a Schwimmwagen is an amphibious vehicle that can cross a river without a ford or bridge. 

Well, this type of comment was inevitable, right? 

12 hours ago, Vet 0369 said:

Well, that’s probable, however, if you open the CMRT Fire and Rubble manual in the game folder, the Schwimmwagen is detailed on page 27 under Unarmored vehicles. It might just be me, but the manual for an expansion to an existing family is always the first thing I look at after downloading the expansion. It helps me to understand what has changed, and new advantages and disadvantages in the expansion.

Usually I do it as well: reading manuals for toothbrushes, washing machines, laptops and smartphones. Especially the Safety Instructions, those are my favorite.  

Edited by dbsapp
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Ithikial_AU said:

You're welcome. :) A touch Hollywood for sure, but hopefully something different.

I'm not against "Hollywood" :) (if it implies being interesting and fun, and not stupid and flat).

I liked it because it was dramatic and simultaneously requried some tactical maneuvers, e.g.not simple meat grinder. 

And no Arillery ! (what a relief) :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...