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Fire and Rubble


BFCElvis

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I wasn't feeling insulted even though his remarks could be taken that way.  I just chalk it up to English not being Dan's primary language so he probably doesn't get all the subtleties.  AKD's Google Fu leaves me in awe by the way 😁.  As far as Dan's position on the Sturmtiger goes - well even though he believes without a shadow of a doubt that Sturmtigers fought on the Eastern Front (or should I say Sturmtiger in the singular) he just hasn't provided enough evidence yet to prove his point to an objective neutral observer.

Even if you take everything Dan provided at face value we are only talking about Sturmtiger in the singular with no evidence that it was used for anything other than taking up space on a train while waiting for the Soviets to look it over and take photos of it.  What was it's operational status?  Was there a maintenance company assigned to keep this singular Sturmtiger running?  Did it fire at anything?   

Regardless, Fire and Rubble has been released so this discussion is academic at this point.

Edited by ASL Veteran
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On the Sturmtiger ,  it is in CMFB since it fought on the Western Front although in very limited numbers, so it is not as if BFC did not want to build the model.

As I recall, the original plan was to include in FR, but this was dropped because there is no reliable info it was ever used in action on the Eastern Front. Even if we accept all the evidence, you had maybe one or two that were present for a few days, not enough to justify their inclusion.

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5 minutes ago, dbsapp said:

"Out for Schwimm" scenario. 

The goal is to cross the river. However, the bridge is broken and there is no river banks suitable for crossing. AI can't find the path either.

Looks like a bug.  

You have to give it a move order to cross the river.  It is better to use a gradual bank and not a steep one.

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7 minutes ago, dbsapp said:

"Out for Schwimm" scenario. 

The goal is to cross the river. However, the bridge is broken and there is no river banks suitable for crossing. AI can't find the path either.

Looks like a bug.  

The only unit that needs to cross the river is the Schwimmwagon so the river should not be a problem. (Plus there is a fordable site to the left of the map in case you want to cross with your full force).

For the AI, well, isnt the scenario presented to be played as Axis only? Or atleast it was Axis prefered, thats for sure.

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3 minutes ago, Sgt Joch said:

On the Sturmtiger ,  it is in CMFB since it fought on the Western Front although in very limited numbers, so it is not as if BFC did not want to build the model.

As I recall, the original plan was to include in FR, but this was dropped because there is no reliable info it was ever used in action on the Eastern Front. Even if we accept all the evidence, you had maybe one or two that were present for a few days, not enough to justify their inclusion.

You could always give it the Hypothetical rarity tag, in the same way that it was given to the PZ3 in BN.

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6 minutes ago, CHEqTRO said:

The only unit that needs to cross the river is the Schwimmwagon so the river should not be a problem. (Plus there is a fordable site to the left of the map in case you want to cross with your full force).

For the AI, well, isnt the scenario presented to be played as Axis only? Or atleast it was Axis prefered, thats for sure.

I tried to cross with every vehicle, except this little car, that I couldn't imagine to swim:) 

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Re: Sturmtiger

I think a photo of Soviet infantry with a Sturmtiger is a pretty strong hint that it was on the Eastern Front. As is the presence of a captured one in a Moscow museum.

Plus it was advertised pre-sale if you want to be nitpicky.

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Recon the terrain before you start see which units can reach or control the objective. Infantry can often wade across where vehicles can't. Check the bridge which has often a point from which you can wade across. Playing a game where you can't reach the objective is not worth playing. Objective to eliminate the enemy forces. 

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 According to the Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War 2 on page 138 I quote "18 were converted from  August to December 1944" and "The Sturmmorser were issued to Sturmmorser companies 1001, 1002, 1003 and were employed mainly in the defence of the German homeland". Now the  "the German homeland" is a huge place , so that leaves it open to wide interpretation.

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50 minutes ago, dbsapp said:

"Out for Schwimm" scenario. 

The goal is to cross the river. However, the bridge is broken and there is no river banks suitable for crossing. AI can't find the path either.

Looks like a bug.  

21 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Recon the terrain before you start see which units can reach or control the objective. Infantry can often wade across where vehicles can't. Check the bridge which has often a point from which you can wade across. Playing a game where you can't reach the objective is not worth playing. Objective to eliminate the enemy forces. 

 

The goal is to use the Schwimmwagon to motor across and get to the exit objective alive. It's an opposed crossing so that group of halftracks is your fire support to soften up a crossing point. You can pick your spot. Keep the Schwimmwagon back at first and use the tracks to take out enough opposition so that you can cross without being blown out of the water. The Russians have some AT weapons so be warned. The tracks are not making the crossing, just the team in the Schwimmwagon.

Here's the plan as stated in the briefing:

 

Dave

Screen Shot 2021-04-25 at 10.30.23 AM.jpg

Edited by Ultradave
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Yeah, since it's in FB minus well add in F&R (even if they were used in very rare instances), at least for games sake. 

So, I expect it back in for the next patch. Hmm, and wait a min, I think instead, BF is planning on adding it back in for a Eastern Front Vehicle Pack in near future.

Oh, and I see your plan BF, Your Good...Real Good :-)

 

Edited by JoMac
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53 minutes ago, Redwolf said:

Re: Sturmtiger

I think a photo of Soviet infantry with a Sturmtiger is a pretty strong hint that it was on the Eastern Front. As is the presence of a captured one in a Moscow museum.

It was captured at a factory in Germany at the end of the war (Brandenburg Eisenwerk), thus the photo caption “Rogäsen, west of Brandenburg.” If it was indeed 250043 (I’m not sure), then it was pulled back from the West with Kp. 1001 and presumably sent to this factory for repairs. If it was one of the early production or prototype models, then it could have previously been with Kp. 1000 in Warsaw, made its train excursion to Hungary, been returned to Germany and eventually captured at this factory no earlier than May 1945.

Here is a report from TSAMO noting that a Sturmtiger was found in a factory in this area (Kirchmöser) and shipped to Kubinka:

047F3C31-F613-4B11-AE02-BC40F3013DDE.thumb.jpeg.afe1e1c74a0b708e5deb9f7f60648d3a.jpeg

https://yuripasholok.livejournal.com/2702925.html

 

 

Edited by akd
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1 hour ago, ASL Veteran said:

Regardless, Fire and Rubble has been released so this discussion is academic at this point.

Sure it is...and I do love it..

In fact I'm not talking about just one, I'm talking about three sturmtigers being actively used in the Eastern front, the one in Warsaw (that could be the mild steel one, it could be so even if BF refered to it we could discard it if you like), then we got the one in Hungary that some sources refer it was attached to the 109 Pz-Brigade Feldherrnhalle that was fightin in the area near Nyékládháza and was nearly depleted, even giving its remaining spw to the 23 PzD.... and finally, the one captured by the russians at Regezen, to the West of Brandenburg, thanks a lot to dbsapp for the traslation (it should be nbr.-250043 or 205543 depending on the source...wonder if the numbering issue have sth to be with them being "canibalized" Tigers) and if nbr 250043 is correct then it "could be" that 12th army recived whatever rest of the 1001 as part of the remanents of the 11th Army and alike formations...don´t know and I guess not much info on that days but maybe AKD got something ...>>>>too late..this guy rocks...thanks @akd...Anything on the lost track in Hungary one?

 

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if of any help I did found this...as some kind of source to reconfirm my undestanding of it being attached to 109Pz Brg... althought it refer the hungarians excursionists to 1000 K.p., which lost one before its Ardenes show...so consistent with the transport tracking...

 https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/sturmtiger.php

 

PS.- @ASL Veteran, now is only one...but remenber it has the value of more than two Elephants, why did i give up so quickly on the Warsaw one?...😋

Edited by Dan Dare
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Sturmmörser-Batterie 1000
Sturm-Mörser-Kompanie 1000 was established by orders dated 13 August 1944. One day prior, on 12 August 1944, the
prototype of the Sturmtiger (chassis number 250174) was sent to Warsaw, along with service personnel from the firm of
Alkett. The Sturmtiger was unloaded from the train on 15 August. Another Sturmtiger (chassis number 250237) arrived at
Pruszkow, outside of Warsaw, on 18 August. Both vehicles were employed in the greater area of Warsaw for approximately
four weeks. They were given the mission of destroying blocks of buildings occupied by the Polish insurgents.

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25 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

if of any help I did found this...as some kind of source to reconfirm my undestanding of it being attached to 109Pz Brg... althought it refer the hungarians excursionists to 1000 K.p., which lost one before its Ardenes show...so consistent with the transport tracking...

 https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/sturmtiger.php

Okay, well I’m not seeing any evidence of any Sturmtigers with the Feldherrnhalle.  Doesn’t mean it wasn’t there, but absence of its presence is not evidence of its presence either. 

Quote

“Here the new FHH Panzer Grenadier division was officially activated on September 1, 1944.  Built around the 109th Panzer Brigade (which it absorbed), the new division had a strength of 8000 men, twenty-five tanks, and a battalion of superb Hummel 150mm self-propelled howitzers.”

Jentz lists the following vehicles for the FHH

Quote

“18 PzIV(lg), 3 PzIV/70, 19 PzV on 15 Mar.  5 PzIV(lg) from HZa 12 Mar.”

 

There are some problems with the text on the tank encyclopedia

Quote

Pz.Stu.Mör.Kp.1000 was formed from two Zugs for a total of 4 vehicles. It was officially formed on 13th August 1944 and the day after formation, the unit was ordered to form part of Heeresgruppe Mitte (Army Group Mitte) and a force of two vehicles (with personnel from Alkett) was sent (15th to 18th August) to quell the Warsaw Uprising. After this, there were plans to send them to Bratislava (Pressburg) to quell the September 1944 Slovak Uprising, but that rebellion petered out before the unit was sent.
The second Zug of two Sturmtigers was sent to France by the end of August 1944. The first Zug was then sent to Hungary, where it was attached to Panzer-Brigade 109 by the middle of September 1944. By the end of October, the second Zug was withdrawn back to Warsaw and then sent back to Sennelager in Germany for refitting. In December 1944, Pz.Stu.Mör.Kp.1000 had been attached to 15th Armee as part of 6th SS-Panzer-Armee but only had 3 operational vehicles in time for Operation Wacht Am Rhein (Watch on the Rhine) in the Ardennes. As a result of problems with transportation though, these vehicles never reached the starting points for the operation and took no part in the offensive.

 

Okay so the text here says that the second Zug was sent to France and then subsequently withdrawn back to Warsaw which would leave the first Zug in Hungary to be attached to the FHH – well that doesn’t make any sense at all because if the second Zug was sent to France, then it wouldn’t be withdrawn to Warsaw leaving the first in Hungary.  Obviously if the second was sent to France, then the one that was withdrawn to Warsaw was the first Zug not the second Zug which leaves none in Hungary because there was only one Zug of two Sturmtigers sent to Warsaw (one of which was the mild steel prototype).

In order for there to be any remaining in Hungary the second Zug can’t go to France and there is only evidence of two being sent to Warsaw – one of which was the mild steel version.

Edited by ASL Veteran
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Let's remember that the Soviets were rolling up the front very quickly in the final weeks of the war.  Just because they captured something doesn't mean it was in battle.  The Sturmtiger was so heavy and logistically difficult to move, I think it's more likely that if one were captured before the war ended that it was abandoned and not actively fighting.

My point is, someone advocating for inclusion of a rare vehicle (this one or any other one) has to prove two things:

1.  That it was present on a particular front during a particular timeframe

2.  That it engaged in combat

Proving #1 without #2 is pointless.  If #1 was all that was needed then we should include the Maus :D

Steve

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7 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Let's remember that the Soviets were rolling up the front very quickly in the final weeks of the war.  Just because they captured something doesn't mean it was in battle.  The Sturmtiger was so heavy and logistically difficult to move, I think it's more likely that if one were captured before the war ended that it was abandoned and not actively fighting.

My point is, someone advocating for inclusion of a rare vehicle (this one or any other one) has to prove two things:

1.  That it was present on a particular front during a particular timeframe

2.  That it engaged in combat

Proving #1 without #2 is pointless.  If #1 was all that was needed then we should include the Maus :D

Steve

someone say Maus???? LOL

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