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Fire and Rubble


BFCElvis

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23 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

It's been more than a couple of years and Lille is dead on, the waiting has been and still is brutal.

I got stopped by Customs once in Lille, there weren't brutal, but it did mean that I missed my ferry back to Limeyland. I've hated the place ever since. Ooops, sorry, wrong Lille.

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7 hours ago, Ts4EVER said:

Volkssturm weapons were really varied, but documents are hard to come by. The Volkssturm around Bautzen for example used French Berthier rifles, Italian impact grenades, Panzerfausts and 4 MG34s in each company.

Some of the weirder stuff I have come across were rare Russian rifle grenade launchers and SVT40s, in use by a tank hunting unit.

For sure they used anything and everything they could get their hands on.  In theory they were supposed to be armed with standard German military kit from the Army, but that was never practical.  In fact, due to late war shortages a big chunk of the standard frontline German made weaponry that had managed to get to the Volkssturm was pulled and reissued to regular armed forces.  In practice each Gau was on its own and whatever misc. weaponry they had in party (NSKK, SA, HJ, etc.) stocks was what VS units got.

One major flub was Hitler overrode recommendations to concentrate the limited weaponry to the border areas with an emphasis on the east.  Instead, Hitler mandated that all 42 regions receive weapons evenly as if there was enough to go around.  The result was everybody was short on weapons.  If the recommendations had been followed the VS units that were actively engaged in fighting on the borders would have been better equipped.  Not that it would have made any difference to the outcome.

Steve

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Why don't we have the MG08 in the axis unit editor to purchase?

The Maschinengewehr 08, or MG 08, was the German Army's standard machine gun in World War I and is an adaptation of Hiram S. Maxim's original 1884 Maxim gun. It was produced in a number of variants during the war. The MG 08 served during World War II as a heavy machine gun in many German infantry divisions, although by the end of the war it had mostly been relegated to second-rate fortress units

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19 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Here's all the small arms available to Volkssturm:

Rifles

Kar98k
Mosin Nagant G256R
Mannlicher G209I
Enfield G281E

SMGs (and Sturmgewher)

MP507
MP3008 (variant 1)
MP3008 (variant 2)
MP3008 (variant 3)
MP40
MP44

Machineguns

MG15
MG34 (LMG and HMG)
MG42 (LMG and HMG)

Pistols

Tokarev 615R
Nagant 612R
Beretta 671I
Browning 640B
P38

No Ppsh 41/ MP 717(r) 😕

Weren´t they quite common to be found in german hands, not only in volkstrum units, but also in the Wehrmatch by the end of the war? Atleast that was my impression from what I have read.

Edited by CHEqTRO
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33 minutes ago, CHEqTRO said:

No Ppsh 41/ MP 717(r) 😕

Weren´t they quite common to be found in german hands, not only in volkstrum units, but also in the Wehrmatch by the end of the war? Atleast that was my impression from what I have read.

The reality is that you can list any number of captured weapons that were reused by the Germans during WW2 at various times and it's probably impossible to include every one of them (Polish Rifles, French Rifles, Belgian machine guns, Czech weapons, etcetera).  I'm sure everyone has a favorite, but it's probably not realistic to expect every one of them to be represented in the game.  Too much work for too little practical end result.  Many of the French bolt action rifles that were reused by the Germans only had a three round magazine like the GEW 302(f).  For submachine guns you have the MP722(f), The entire production of the Czech ZK vz383 was sent to the Waffen SS.  The Germans also had an MP18/1, MP 28/11 (used by SS), MP 34/1, MP 35/1, MP Erma (used by SS), MP38, MP41, and the MP3008.  The Waffen SS exclusively used many of those weapons.  Even the Soviets had the PPD 1934, PPD 1940, PPS 1941, PPS 1942, and the PPS 1943.  Are all those different SMGs in the Soviet order of battle in the game?  No.  Does it matter?  Probably not ...?  Did the Germans use all of them as capture weapons?  Probably?  Does it matter that they aren't using them in the game?  Probably not? (shrug).  I just don't know why captured Soviet SMGs always seems to come up - is there some sort of reason why it seems like they get asked for all the time?  I'm just not getting it.  Honest question here, not trying to bust anyone's chops or anything like that.  Just curious.

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23 minutes ago, ASL Veteran said:

The reality is that you can list any number of captured weapons that were reused by the Germans during WW2 at various times and it's probably impossible to include every one of them (Polish Rifles, French Rifles, Belgian machine guns, Czech weapons, etcetera).  I'm sure everyone has a favorite, but it's probably not realistic to expect every one of them to be represented in the game.  Too much work for too little practical end result.  Many of the French bolt action rifles that were reused by the Germans only had a three round magazine like the GEW 302(f).  For submachine guns you have the MP722(f), The entire production of the Czech ZK vz383 was sent to the Waffen SS.  The Germans also had an MP18/1, MP 28/11 (used by SS), MP 34/1, MP 35/1, MP Erma (used by SS), MP38, MP41, and the MP3008.  The Waffen SS exclusively used many of those weapons.  Even the Soviets had the PPD 1934, PPD 1940, PPS 1941, PPS 1942, and the PPS 1943.  Are all those different SMGs in the Soviet order of battle in the game?  No.  Does it matter?  Probably not ...?  Did the Germans use all of them as capture weapons?  Probably?  Does it matter that they aren't using them in the game?  Probably not? (shrug).  I just don't know why captured Soviet SMGs always seems to come up - is there some sort of reason why it seems like they get asked for all the time?  I'm just not getting it.  Honest question here, not trying to bust anyone's chops or anything like that.  Just curious.

Well, the thing with the Ppsh is that it wouldn´t need that much work to be introduced, only in the coding department. In fact, it surprises me that they have come in great lenghts to add weapons like the VG 1.5 and the MP3008 series, which would need to be modelled and coded from scratch and were, atleast that is the impression I am under, definitively rarer than the Ppsh 41 (in german hands, I mean), which wouldn´t need a new model and its inclusion would have been easier.

Then there is the thing with inmerssion. One of my favorite weapons of FI is the Beretta sub machinegun in german use. It adds personality to the squad that carries it. The same would go for any squad carrying the ppsh 41 in FR (or any other distinctive weapon, really). Also, they were, like I said, pretty common; honestly, for me, having germans without Ppsh 41 in 1945 seems like the americans lacking the m3 grease guns. 

Plus there is also the gameplay perspective. Anyone that has played RT will know that those fast-firing Ppsh are a devil, specially on woods. Having germans with such fast-firing weapons, considering that we are used to the slower rate of fire of the MP40, will make for new interesting gameplay, or so do I think.

And finally, its just more content that I would get from my 30 euros, so obviously I am going to want more stuff added ;) ( I actually had a similar discussion with Steve over the inclusion of the Jagdtiger, withy my points being very similar to the ones being listed here. They did decide to add the Jagdtiger that time,so maybe I get lucky and I get them to add the Ppsh as well, thought considering that they are on final candidate stage i think is hardly a possibility, and I dont know how this forum would react to having the module delayed another one or two weeks for the inclusion of just a gun :P. But there is still hope, as they could add it in a patch down the line as they did with a french revolver in Rome to Victory. One can hope XD)

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20 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Here's all the small arms available to Volkssturm:

Rifles

Kar98k
Mosin Nagant G256R
Mannlicher G209I
Enfield G281E

SMGs (and Sturmgewher)

MP507
MP3008 (variant 1)
MP3008 (variant 2)
MP3008 (variant 3)
MP40
MP44

Machineguns

MG15
MG34 (LMG and HMG)
MG42 (LMG and HMG)

Pistols

Tokarev 615R
Nagant 612R
Beretta 671I
Browning 640B
P38

Thank you so much for the news and the huge efforts that the team is doing for release the game. Now that the end is near the results looks like awesome.

I assume that since the TOE was uploaded on the website (January) several changes have happened. Can you bring us here a little upgrade of the TOE's? 

Again thanks and keep the great work!

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1 hour ago, CHEqTRO said:

Well, the thing with the Ppsh is that it wouldn´t need that much work to be introduced, only in the coding department. In fact, it surprises me that they have come in great lenghts to add weapons like the VG 1.5 and the MP3008 series, which would need to be modelled and coded from scratch and were, atleast that is the impression I am under, definitively rarer than the Ppsh 41 (in german hands, I mean), which wouldn´t need a new model and its inclusion would have been easier.

Then there is the thing with inmerssion. One of my favorite weapons of FI is the Beretta sub machinegun in german use. It adds personality to the squad that carries it. The same would go for any squad carrying the ppsh 41 in FR (or any other distinctive weapon, really). Also, they were, like I said, pretty common; honestly, for me, having germans without Ppsh 41 in 1945 seems like the americans lacking the m3 grease guns. 

I think the PPSh was less common in German hands than is often assumed, at least based on a review of divisional returns for Jan-Mar 1945 (most divisions except Infantry divisions in the range 1.-99.).  Inconsistencies in reporting make it difficult to draw firm conclusions, but even beyond the Italian front, Italian M.Pi. seem far more common.

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Yeah, the problem is that theoretically the VS used dozens of different weapons.  We chose the ones that seemed to have been most prevalent.  For example, one source said 800,000 Italian rifles were made available to VS.  They had intended to rebore them to shoot 8mm, but that was impractical so they were issued "as is".  Ammo availability probably limited how many were actually handed out.  In general VS had a paltry amount of ammo on hand as even the regular Wehrmacht was running into shortages.

Steve

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After looking at the available SMGs for the Germans the only one I would be interested in seeing is the MP35.  It appears that something like 40000 were produced until 1945 and every single one was sent to the Waffen SS.  So it would be interesting if the Waffen SS squads in Combat Mission used the MP35 (Bergmann) instead of the MP40 (or in addition to as a random substitute).  I don't think it would make a difference in firepower terms, but it would be something that sort of 'set apart' the SS squads from the regular army squads from an appearance standpoint.

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5 hours ago, ASL Veteran said:

I just don't know why captured Soviet SMGs always seems to come up - is there some sort of reason why it seems like they get asked for all the time?  I'm just not getting it.  Honest question here, not trying to bust anyone's chops or anything like that.  Just curious.

Maybe cause it was a widespread and common practice for the heer on the ostfront, not only cause mps were always in short supply ...or because the common landser prefer a 71 shots mp to their one shot kar...or because ppsh manuals were officially translated to german...or even ppsh was adopted by the heer (mostly during 42/43)...or because it was said the mp43/44-stg44 were needed to counter the ppsh ( ala t34 vs panther)... or because was an almost compulsory thing in recon groups (both sides...so ppsh on Aufklarung gruppes and mp40s on russian scout teams...on the westernfront it was also common on the german side at least, wonder why they did look as if they prefered the m1carbine to the tommy/grease gun), not a thing that CM is simulating but i'm sure you will see the wisdom of it...anyway... If you are genuinally curious I would recommend you to investigate it a little...you will be surpised...if not...well just think is because of OG Steiner in "The cross of iron" (the best western on the eastfront ever done, just because of it we should have the ppsh on the german side) and live happy... 

 

@akd,AKD, IMHO you are assuming wrongly, in divisional returns you list the materiel you were supplied and report its return again on a given time in order to ask for more materiel, or for the ordance personnel supplying you the needed ammo ...it had not other purpouse that I know...In the end of the war ppsh ended as it had started, as a trophy weapon, and those  are not usually listed and do not "requiere" being supplied by ordance personnel...and of course they do not need maintenance as a tank (wonder who supplied 85mm to some)...I mean, you collected the needed ammo from were you collected the gun and if you are lucky your enemy will spare with you some more ammo on the next encounter... and more important if tomorrow you loose it or just drop it, no one will enquire or blame you...

 

I  have seen some russian mps being listed on 20 PzGrD but I guess those should be rechambered ppsh-41 (mp41(r)?), so surely quite small quantities in 1945...and also I've got ammazed seeing Finnish mps on the Führer Begleit and Führer Grenadier Divisions but doubt they were 7.62mm and my best guess is they were the Kp m/44...

 

anyway, I will not ask BF to provide us with a ppsh on german hands, not anymore, that time had passed, I was not agree with his decision back when RT was launched and his argumentation was quite strange IIRC, but he is the customer and you know he is always rigth, uppppsss, sorry,I will rephrase it properly... he is supplying me with one thing nobody else will, so I do have to like it or lump it..., what I'm thinking on ask him is to just give us the mp38 and on a 20-30% rate quantity compared to the mp40 ...the rest I will do it myself...😉 (by the way, did anybody know from where it comes the mp40 and mp-40 on the gun moddels? )

 

@ASL Veteran...i guess mp35 where almost gone by 1943....toooooo many casualties of NCOs and Officers in the early days of WSS...trying to apply daring doctrines had side consecuences I guess...curious nontheless, cause I had on my mind that if anybody were using ppsh more than anyother on the german side it was the SS...nothing that I remenber reading to confirm or denny it but I got the "feeling"... anyway... if the option for the mp38 do not prosper then I will support your idea... or the mp41 Schmeisser (supplied on 1944 to SS and German allies)...but please on a 20-30% quantity rate...even if in those cases could be quite much...

Edited by Dan Dare
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7 minutes ago, BFCElvis said:

Would it distract the conversation too much for me to say that I love this screenshot?

The screenshot that I would love to see is that showing the progress bar for the upload of the Fire & Rubble installers onto the Amazon servers :P

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1 hour ago, Dan Dare said:

 

 

@akd,AKD, IMHO you are assuming wrongly, in divisional returns you list the materiel you were supplied and report its return again on a given time in order to ask for more materiel, or for the ordance personnel supplying you the needed ammo ...it had not other purpouse that I know...In the end of the war ppsh ended as it had started, as a trophy weapon, and those  are not usually listed and do not "requiere" being supplied by ordance personnel...and of course they do not need maintenance as a tank (wonder who supplied 85mm to some)...I mean, you collected the needed ammo from were you collected the gun and if you are lucky your enemy will spare with you some more ammo on the next encounter... and more important if tomorrow you loose it or just drop it, no one will enquire or blame you...

Not sure what you are talking about here, but divisional kriegsgliederung usually include a beutewaffen section on the reverse side. Here is one example amongst hundreds I was just looking at recently while checking something for Steve:

1365914545_3.GebirgsdivisionJan445.jpg.f579139e6e64f571c6f2f63c75f35016.jpg

3. Gebirgsdivision kriegsgliederung Jan. 4, 1945

Quote

 

I  have seen some russian mps being listed on 20 PzGrD but I guess those should be rechambered ppsh-41 (mp41(r)?), so surely quite small quantities in 1945...and also I've got ammazed seeing Finnish mps on the Führer Begleit and Führer Grenadier Divisions but doubt they were 7.62mm and my best guess is they were the Kp m/44...

Not sure if the rechambered PPSh are reported in a consistent manner.  I see them listed explicitly on some returns.

Edited by akd
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28 minutes ago, BFCElvis said:

Would it distract the conversation too much for me to say that I love this screenshot?

 

VP.jpg

Change that coat to a London Fog, and that faust to a Chicago Typewriter, and you got Dillinger hisself!

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@akdwell, we are seeing same kind  of documents...what I'm talking about it is about the purpouse of the paper you are showing, which is to obtain the required ammo in "units of issue" of the division and in contrast to the situation of "Ordance do not have this kind of ammo...so the division/gruppe should handle it by itself..." (similar to the VS with they scarce and rare italian rifle ammo supplies but with the avantage that your enemy got lots of the ammunition you need)...so, if you will not be alloted any "units of issue" , you do not report it on the weapons return...it is worthless to do it.

Tanks, my loved beutepanzers, are a diferent thing cause even if Ordance did not have the ammo (85mm) or Maintenance the spare parts (so they had to canibalize other captured T34) it might have the combustible (Diesel?), allowing them to move on...but anyhow they were somehow short-lived, apearing one moth and disapearing almost the lot the following, and so and so...

I was not able to found any supply of 7,63mm Mauser pistol ammo to any standar division in any year (but I did found Germany supplying Finland of such ammo)... so, my best guess is that any MP listed on a standar division should be a 9mm (except the mp43/44 if not listed as Stg, but they indicated the 7.92k cal. so let me skip it...), so sumarizing i do belive that if listed as MP should be a 9mm.... and any non 9mm MP were therefore not listed...or listed indicating caliber or another german designation to that effect

Edited by Dan Dare
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26 minutes ago, danfrodo said:

I can't help but think how many of the volkssturm were WW1 veterans who in 1918 thought "I am sure glad I won't ever have to go through that again" 

Surprisingly, its been said that most veterans of the great war were actually eager to fight the Soviets unlike the other, much younger members, who were quick to desert as soon as the officers weren't looking to get back to their homes.

But yeah, I feel bad for those old men.. Heh

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4 hours ago, ASL Veteran said:

After looking at the available SMGs for the Germans the only one I would be interested in seeing is the MP35.  It appears that something like 40000 were produced until 1945 and every single one was sent to the Waffen SS.  So it would be interesting if the Waffen SS squads in Combat Mission used the MP35 (Bergmann) instead of the MP40 (or in addition to as a random substitute).  I don't think it would make a difference in firepower terms, but it would be something that sort of 'set apart' the SS squads from the regular army squads from an appearance standpoint.

I'm dusting off my memory here, but by 1944 I'm pretty sure that both the MP34 and MP35 were relegated to rear units, Einsatzkommando, concentration camp guards, police units, and other non-Waffen SS non-frontline formations within the SS.  They also were sold off to Spain and Portugal in significant numbers.  Apparently to some other countries in smaller quantities.

Steve

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