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Fire and Rubble


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On 4/10/2021 at 4:42 PM, AlanSA said:

While I agree there was a degree of so-called "wehraboo-ism" about the German military there are now those going too far in rehabilitating the conduct of Soviet army.

Lets not forget the Soviet military initially invaded Poland along with their Nazi allies and committed the Katyn massacre. They also invaded the Baltic countries who joined the Eastern Poles enslaved under a genocidal regime.  All in line with the The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

Lastly Soviet soldiers did not liberate Eastern European countries but merely exchanged one tyranny for another. Many of those same "liberating" Soviet solders would later turn their guns on the people of Hungary and Czechoslovakia.

 

 

Somehow I missed this brilliant post.

Thank you for commemorating 27 millions Soviet people who died fighting Nazi Germany. 

Unfortunately, while destroying 90% of German forces during 4 year bloody combat, Russians were not as humane and gentle as Allies, who deliberately bombed cities and killed 600,000 German civilians, including 76,000 children

Indeed, they merely exchanged one tyranny for another. Soviet tyranny came with free education and free healthcare, while German rule came with depopulation, eradication of national intellectuals and elimination of the education system.

It was a real tragedy for Eastern Polish Jews to be under Soviet occupation, because they didn't share the joys of German treatment in Western Poland. 

 

 

 

Edited by dbsapp
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14 minutes ago, dbsapp said:

Unfortunately, while destroying 90% of German forces during 4 year bloody combat, Russians were not as humane and gentle as Allies, who deliberately bombed cities and killed 600,000 German civilians, including 76,000 children

Please don't forget the allies humane strategic bombing campaign of non military targets in the pacific/Japan which resulted in hundred of thousands of civilian deaths.

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10 minutes ago, Geoff-Ludumpress said:

Please don't forget the allies humane strategic bombing campaign of non military targets in the pacific/Japan which resulted in hundred of thousands of civilian deaths.

You mean the one that killed up to 1 million civilians and left another 8 millions homeless?

As American war hero and champion of democracy and human rights Curtis LeMay said:  "I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal."

But, hey, we are "going too far in rehabilitating the conduct of Soviet army"! 

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The thread is the Fire and Rubble extension of Red Thunder. If I require history lessons I know how to research and don't need the comment section of Battle Front. Com. Here I am a happy customer of Battle Front and look forward towards any news of this module. 

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2 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

The thread is the Fire and Rubble extension of Red Thunder. If I require history lessons I know how to research and don't need the comment section of Battle Front. Com. Here I am a happy customer of Battle Front and look forward towards any news of this module. 

Agree! Unless the Soviets are condemned and Wehrmacht is praised, then it's OK! 

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28 minutes ago, dbsapp said:

Agree! Unless the Soviets are condemned and Wehrmacht is praised, then it's OK! 

Actually, most of us have thought about these issues and have various sad, complex and humanitarian opinions, often coloured by the experiences of the many people we know, have known love or have talked to or read about - but we prefer not to be drawn into politicised arguments in the BF Community.

Sometimes it spills over because we're only human, but we try and leave the angry debates in the world outside, as it spoils the fun of discussing a game we love :)

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10 minutes ago, Freyberg said:

Actually, most of us have thought about these issues and have various sad, complex and humanitarian opinions, often coloured by the experiences of the many people we know, have known love or have talked to or read about - but we prefer not to be drawn into politicised arguments in the BF Community.

Sometimes it spills over because we're only human, but we try and leave the angry debates in the world outside, as it spoils the fun of discussing a game we love :)

Wise and meaningful words. Sad, that they didn't appear after this comment

Maybe you didn't notice, but I only react to other people's "politicised arguments" and don't provoke "angry debates" myself. 

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3 hours ago, dbsapp said:

Wise and meaningful words. Sad, that they didn't appear after this comment

Sorry, I didn't see that comment, or I might have said something.

For the record, I'm anti-Communist myself, but I deeply respect the great sacrifice the Soviet people made to defeat a much more dangerous enemy; and I also feel grieved and conflicted by the terrible civilian casualties we, the Western Allies, inflicted on the civilian populations of Germany and Japan (my ex-father-in-law was a child at the fire-bombing of Tokyo).

I generally don't play as the 'bad guys' either - I'd much rather play CMRT as Soviets than as Germans.

Anyway - it's normal to get emotional about historical events from time to time, but let's all stay friends because we all have a great geeky hobby in common 😛

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6 hours ago, dbsapp said:

Somehow I missed this brilliant post.

Thank you for commemorating 27 millions Soviet people who died fighting Nazi Germany. 

Unfortunately, while destroying 90% of German forces during 4 year bloody combat, Russians were not as humane and gentle as Allies, who deliberately bombed cities and killed 600,000 German civilians, including 76,000 children

Indeed, they merely exchanged one tyranny for another. Soviet tyranny came with free education and free healthcare, while German rule came with depopulation, eradication of national intellectuals and elimination of the education system.

It was a real tragedy for Eastern Polish Jews to be under Soviet occupation, because they didn't share the joys of German treatment in Western Poland. 

 

 

 

Since you insist on continuing this  off topic discussion.

I don't think fighting Nazis offers the Soviet military a clean slate for their acts of aggression and crimes against not only their own people but their neighbours. 

Neither do I equate the Allies whose acts were committed against targets with the intention of ending the war and freeing the people or Europe with that of the  Soviet Union who deliberately targeted the peoples of Poland and the Baltics  with acts of mass murderer to terrify them into submission. All the while allied with the Nazis. It's frankly absurd to try equate the two.

Sorry your  "we're great because we fought Nazis, after being content to first align with them, and because our crimes against humanity didn't quite match theirs " argument doesn't fly with me. 

You are of course entitled to your opinion.

 

 

Edited by AlanSA
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38 minutes ago, AlanSA said:

Since you insist on continuing this  off topic discussion.

I don't think fighting Nazis offers the Soviet military a clean slate for their acts of aggression and crimes against not only their own people but their neighbours. 

Neither do I equate the Allies whose acts were committed against targets with the intention of ending the war and freeing the people or Europe with that of the  Soviet Union who deliberately targeted the peoples of Poland and the Baltics  with acts of mass murderer to terrify them into submission. All the while allied with the Nazis. It's frankly absurd to try equate the two.

Sorry your  "we're great because we fought Nazis, after being content to first align with them, and because our crimes against humanity didn't quite match theirs " argument doesn't fly with me. 

You are of course entitled to your opinion.

 

 

Well said!

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14 minutes ago, waffelmann said:

Oh please not here! You know how it will ends!

 

And I will never get my answer from benbark...

It's like Freyberg says, it's all far too emotional. Let this be the end and pm each other if you really want to continue. Personally I have very pleasant private conversations with people that absolutely did not agree with me on several subjects. Just talk to each other in private.

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1 hour ago, AlanSA said:

Since you insist on continuing this  off topic discussion.

I don't think fighting Nazis offers the Soviet military a clean slate for their acts of aggression and crimes against not only their own people but their neighbours. 

Neither do I equate the Allies whose acts were committed against targets with the intention of ending the war and freeing the people or Europe with that of the  Soviet Union who deliberately targeted the peoples of Poland and the Baltics  with acts of mass murderer to terrify them into submission. All the while allied with the Nazis. It's frankly absurd to try equate the two.

Sorry your  "we're great because we fought Nazis, after being content to first align with them, and because our crimes against humanity didn't quite match theirs " argument doesn't fly with me. 

You are of course entitled to your opinion.

 

 

Since you insist on continuing this off topic "discussion", which you suddenly begun with out-of-nowhere unasked argument that offends the memory of millions of Soviet people who died in WW2. 

I'm glad that you enlightened me that killing 76,000 children "with good intentions" is OK and can't be equated with  such evil acts as reclaiming the territories from Polish state which it annexed  20 years earlier after the war with USSR.  

USSR was never "allied with Nazis". You don't sign non-aggression pacts with allies. Never heard of non-aggression pact between USA and Britain. It was conducted only after Munich'38  and after almost decade long futile attempts of Soviet diplomacy to make alliance with France and Britain against Hitler, which were torpedoed by Chamberlain who wished Germany to turn its aggression Eastward against Russia. 

Some people of Poland and Baltic states, unfortunately, were subjected to purges. This fact deserves severe condemnation indeed. But the scale of this repressions are not comparable with Nazi crimes or - if you wish - civilians casualties of bombardments  "with good intensions". 

And yes - we're great. Not because we fought Nazis (many did), but because we contributed 90% to the victory. 

P.S. I'm sorry for this off-topic discussion. But - once again - I'm not the one who started it. Moreover, there are some things one shouldn't leave unnoticed. 

 

 

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Just to clarfy, Athens was quite antidemocratic, Spartans were a bunch of bastards, Rome was the evil empire (sorry but the 666 is a cavalistic reference to Neron) and Darth Vader, even if he has cookies, space destroyers and tie fighters, is a criminal under any standar you might apply (maybe not long time ago and on a galaxy far, far away...but luckily i'm judgin it from here and now)...nevertheless I've got a problem evaluating Napoleon...I guess I should ask a british...vae victis.

 

Dear Mr @Battlefront.com, I assure you I do not usually waste my time on things like this...but this is all your fault... you see, I was almost posting about  the history of my family on both sides of the SCW to counter the "you more" nonsense and "bad guys" illiteraty...incredible, reading the chat when I do have on my desk the 2nd vol. of "the Oder front 1945" and "the Berlin Operation 1945"...I guess I'm completly lost...save me please...you are the only one that can do it...

RELEASE IT NOW... PLEASEEEEEE

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1 hour ago, Freyberg said:

This tit-for-tat squabbling is how threads get shut down, which is annoying for the rest of us.

Yet you decided to entertain his attempts at whitewashing Soviet crimes.  Ironically I wouldn't have bothered to reply otherwise.

Anyway I have said my bit.

 

Edited by AlanSA
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1 minute ago, AlanSA said:

Yet you decided to entertain his attempts at whitewashing Soviet crimes.  Ironically I wouldn't have bothered to reply otherwise if you hadn't.

I'm not going to get in a fight with either of you. I'm actually trying to be conciliatory to you both ❤️

I think forum etiquette is important, especially on the topic of war, which combines the twin topics of politics and death in their most tragic form.

You both appear to be new to the forum, so you may not have seen how unpleasant these political arguments can get. It's just best if we stick to the game - like heated arguments about whether the Bren Gun is better than the BAR 😛

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