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Any chance of getting the "run around the house and get shot" issue fixed?


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Most of you probably saw this happen: You move a team up to a house. There's clearly a door on the side you're on. You then order the team to enter the house. They for some reason decide to run around the house into the street to enter the front door. Getting shot in the process.

This issue has been in CM for as long as I remember. Any chance of getting this changed so that teams will always enter through the door on the side they start on?

(Also there's a separate issue where doors are not on the side they are shown graphically - many examples found in the otherwise excellent Aachen campaign in CMFB)

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I feel your pain. Sometimes doors are rendered impassable because of slight changes in elevation. This occurs quite a lot in Final Blitzkrieg, as has been pointed out in other threads..

Also, some of the buildings introduced in Market-Garden had a problem with troops entering through the side of the building rather than the front or back door, this was then ported over to Final Blitzkrieg. As you mentioned it is a particular problem on the Aachen map as rather than being detached houses, they have been set into rows alongside the new FB building types, and therefore, the player has no idea which door the troops will end up being able to use.

Sadly, I don't think that the problem can be fixed using the current engine, unless scenario designers want to re-visit their work and remove the problematical buildings and post a new version of their campaigns or battles for us to destroy.

Edited by Warts 'n' all
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it is possible to mitigate this problem by dividing the groups, they will all take the same door
However, this remains a problem when the troops descend from a vehicle, the "split team" does not work.

3 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

(Also there's a separate issue where doors are not on the side they are shown graphically - many examples found in the otherwise excellent Aachen campaign in CMFB)

I also noticed this type of problem on CM Italy
while it does not or few arise in CM Normandy
I think it comes from the calibration of buildings

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3 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Some building issues got fixed but the problems can remain 'baked into' old maps. I recall on rare occasion scenario designers would get orders to open our maps, remove the offending building, replace it with a fresh building and resave. I haven't seen that request for a long time, though.

It would take a fair bit of work to weed out all of the problematic buildings, I wouldn't envy anyone with the task.

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This is one of the most frustrating and annoying aspects of the game engine 4, the newfound creativity in how troops express their desire to use more than 1 doorway when they think that there will be a small "traffic jam" at the doorway. This was never a problem in CMSF or the original CMBN version that i have(non version 4). I only ever see this in CMSF2.

Having to always put down a waypoint right outside the door to force troops to reliably take only that 1 door is problematic when they should enter that house quickly, and on top it is not working every time. I find myself having to reload a savegame mostly because of this one thing. The tiny "traffic jam" at the door was never a problem i wonder why this was introduced with engine 4, it solves nothing and only creates problems.

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1 hour ago, Pandur said:

Having to always put down a waypoint right outside the door to force troops to reliably take only that 1 door is problematic when they should enter that house quickly, and on top it is not working every time. I find myself having to reload a savegame mostly because of this one thing. The tiny "traffic jam" at the door was never a problem i wonder why this was introduced with engine 4, it solves nothing and only creates problems.

Yes, this is why I suggest that it be coded that troops will always enter the building from the nearest door to their starting position, even if that means a bit of a traffic jam. The jam can be prevented by the player not forcing too many troops through the door at the same time - it can be managed. But unexpected running to the other side is often suicide.

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It is just very distracting if i do not have to think about how to best engage the enemy but how to best game the system in order for my squads to use 1 damned door. Sure i can split a squad every time i let them enter a building, but how many squads do you have entering how many buildings in a urban map? Its many squads enter many buildings, to split each and every squad and on top take the penalty to moral for the split is just not a good workaround at all.

I have tryed with "assault" command, and even with this command, i have seen the 1st team run in the close door and after they arrive the 2nd team now proceed to run around the house taking the other door. It is nerve wrecking, cause the player usually has a reason to let troops approach a house from a certain direction and not from the other side.

As said, for me this is the most frustrating aspect in the game right now when i play urban map, and most maps in this game feature build up areas. Surprisingly this worked better 10 years ago in CMSF where this issue did not exist, there was a small jam at the door and that was it, no problem. I am glad i do not PBEM this game cause that would make me rage quit real quick, to see the pixel truppen getting creative with doors and i can not reload it to adept orders.

Edited by Pandur
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1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

Yes, this is why I suggest that it be coded that troops will always enter the building from the nearest door to their starting position, even if that means a bit of a traffic jam. The jam can be prevented by the player not forcing too many troops through the door at the same time - it can be managed. But unexpected running to the other side is often suicide.

agree, though I don´t expect this to happen unless BFC introduces kind of SOP´s generally. As is now the TacAI takes little regard to cover and cohesion. Getting x number of guys to a target AS in fastest possible ways is all that counts currently. If there´s a bottleneck.... well, bad luck then. :P If BFC would be consequential they´d also allow troopers jumping through windows and all that. That would also pour more guys into a building without everybody stepping on their feet. I mean they can jump over walls and fences like hurdlers, so doing the same on windows shouldn´t actually be a problem from BFC´s point of view. :huh:

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4 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

agree, though I don´t expect this to happen unless BFC introduces kind of SOP´s generally. As is now the TacAI takes little regard to cover and cohesion. Getting x number of guys to a target AS in fastest possible ways is all that counts currently. If there´s a bottleneck.... well, bad luck then

It's actually easier for the computer to just find the shortest path between two points than also to factor in bottlenecks and total travel time. So no need for SOP (for this problem at least)

Edited by Bulletpoint
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On 10/22/2019 at 4:28 AM, Pandur said:

The tiny "traffic jam" at the door was never a problem i wonder why this was introduced with engine 4, it solves nothing and only creates problems.

The "traffic jam" was a feature of the game BEFORE version 4, and was FIXED in version 4 by the new infantry behavior; I.E. Infantry no longer "bunch up", "move in single file lines everywhere", and "respect each other's space". This problem is not nearly as large as people are making it out to be, mostly because people would rather have their squads all run around together instead of splitting them into teams at the sharp edge of the attack.

 

On 10/22/2019 at 6:56 AM, Pandur said:

It is just very distracting if i do not have to think about how to best engage the enemy but how to best game the system in order for my squads to use 1 damned door. Sure i can split a squad every time i let them enter a building, but how many squads do you have entering how many buildings in a urban map? Its many squads enter many buildings, to split each and every squad and on top take the penalty to moral for the split is just not a good workaround at all.

A four-man fire team is rarely a critical puzzle piece, and a four man fire team rarely tries to run around a building in order to enter it. There's an entire subsection of commands that allow you to split your squads down into various types of small teams for different purposes, with different weapon loads, and different equipment. If you can't seem to operate a three squad platoon with one or two squads split into teams, then I don't know what I can say. Maybe you shouldn't play on urban maps. Try playing on open fields instead.

If I can learn how to use effective micromanagement in a graviteam title which supposedly "punishes micromanagement", you guys can learn to split your squads into teams to make them more flexible and responsive. If I'm using a two-up one back scheme with my infantry companies, both of my leading platoons will be split down into teams. That's around eleven teams per platoon, across both leading platoons. It's only twenty two units on the sharp edge, of which maybe only three or four are even moving or receiving orders on each turn.

It's not like someone's asking you to break a battalion into teams.

 

On 10/22/2019 at 12:01 PM, Bulletpoint said:

It's actually easier for the computer to just find the shortest path between two points than also to factor in bottlenecks and total travel time. So no need for SOP (for this problem at least)

Generally speaking, this is what the computer already does. Plot a move command directly across a small patch of marshy terrain, and sit back and watch your guys doggedly trudge through the sludge instead of simply taking the faster and easier path around it. Unless there is physically impassible terrain in your movement path, your troops generally go directly where they're supposed to, with the only deviation being the tendency to follow action spots in either straight lines, or diagonal lines.

The problem observed is the fact that building walls are IMPASSIBLE, thus forcing the ai to make a decision, and it may not make the decision you want, even if it means that the squad will arrive at the 1st floor of the building faster if it splits up and uses two doors.

Doors seem to have a position in which the soldier is "moving through the door", several positions in which soldiers are "waiting to use the door", and if all of those positions are occupied, then the remaining members of the squad look for a new door that is currently not being used.

 

So here's a simple rule of thumb for entering a building:

  • Split your squad into teams.
  • Order the first team into the building.
  • Give each other team a compounding five second pause I.E. second team five seconds, third team ten seconds.
  • After inputting your pause commands, place a movement waypoint for the following teams on the building, staggering between floors if necessary.

I typically have an assault team go in first to the first floor, followed by a weapons team to the second floor, with the remaining rifle section going to the third floor, if able.
When I'm ready to exit the building, I recombine my teams on the first floor prior to exiting, if not under imminent threat.
Otherwise I exit each team separately and regroup the squad in a safe location.

Here's a squad doing exactly as I have described, while a second squad simultaneously fails to do as I have described:

 

Edited by General Jack Ripper
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And as far as I'm concerned, here's a textbook example. Every single squad is split into teams, and every single soldier went where I told them to go. No one bunched up, there were no traffic jams, and placing a waypoint in front of a door before entry leads to only about a five second pause for a four-man team. If that's just too unbearable for your grand battle plan that's timed across an entire infantry battalion down to the microsecond, then buddy, you've got more problems than I can reasonably address.

 

Edited by General Jack Ripper
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On 10/22/2019 at 7:39 AM, RockinHarry said:

I mean they can jump over walls and fences like hurdlers, so doing the same on windows shouldn´t actually be a problem from BFC´s point of view. :huh:

If hurdling means, "I'm going to put one arm down and kick my legs over the side," which I am reasonably certain it doesn't. Then again, it has been a few years since I've seen a track and field event.

There's only one problem with your hypothesis however: Walls and Fences CAN be hurdled, windows CANNOT. You can, in fact, CLIMB through a window, but usually only with some difficulty, which becomes magnified when attempting to do it with 60-80 pounds of gear. I suppose Battlefront could invest time in making an animation of two soldiers using their hands and shoulders to help a third climb through a window into a house, or they could literally do anything else, or just nothing at all.

I'm in favor of the 'nothing at all approach' otherwise the forums will be filled with complaints about soldiers being shot while attempting to help each other climb through windows, while someone whines and cries about how climbing through windows isn't correctly modeled because some regiment somewhere developed some special stepladder to do the job, and now we need to have said stepladder modeled in the game otherwise it's just broken forever.

Seriously dude, some people are still waiting for an extra tall tripod for the Bruno Enfield Light Machinegun to be modeled, so a soldier can fire it in an anti-aircraft role.

Literally a tripod, for a BREN gun, for antiaircraft use.

There was an actual argument about it and everything. Search it up.

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4 hours ago, General Jack Ripper said:

....If that's just too unbearable for your grand battle plan that's timed across an entire infantry battalion down to the microsecond, then buddy, you've got more problems than I can reasonably address.

 

What an obnoxious reply. Pompous oafs like you are what I hate about this forum.

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10 hours ago, General Jack Ripper said:

The "traffic jam" was a feature of the game BEFORE version 4, and was FIXED in version 4 by the new infantry behavior; I.E. Infantry no longer "bunch up", "move in single file lines everywhere", and "respect each other's space". This problem is not nearly as large as people are making it out to be, mostly because people would rather have their squads all run around together instead of splitting them into teams at the sharp edge of the attack.

It was a "feature" that did not needed to be fixed, what you call a fix is way more annoying and unrealistic than the traffic jam ever was. I know it was introduced with engine 4, i never had that problem in CMSF, CMBN and CMRT it works flawless there, i do not have them updated to engine 4. I dont want this game to be a game of workarounds, where i have to permanently use workarounds in order to have my infantry do what they did before engine 4 without any workarounds.

10 hours ago, General Jack Ripper said:

A four-man fire team is rarely a critical puzzle piece, and a four man fire team rarely tries to run around a building in order to enter it. There's an entire subsection of commands that allow you to split your squads down into various types of small teams for different purposes, with different weapon loads, and different equipment. If you can't seem to operate a three squad platoon with one or two squads split into teams, then I don't know what I can say. Maybe you shouldn't play on urban maps. Try playing on open fields instead.

If I can learn how to use effective micromanagement in a graviteam title which supposedly "punishes micromanagement", you guys can learn to split your squads into teams to make them more flexible and responsive. If I'm using a two-up one back scheme with my infantry companies, both of my leading platoons will be split down into teams. That's around eleven teams per platoon, across both leading platoons. It's only twenty two units on the sharp edge, of which maybe only three or four are even moving or receiving orders on each turn.

It's not like someone's asking you to break a battalion into teams.

Maybe you only play tiny scenarios in realtime where you have 3 squads and that is it, god forbid i play scenarios where i push 2 or 3 companys through urban space. And using the workaround every turn on several squads, no, just no that is plain stupid. You can play your tiny scenarios as you like but leave me in peace with your smart suggestions.

Something else, is this what you do in this forums? Jumping people that have perfectly reasonable suggestions or feedback and act like they are retards that can not play the game?

Edited by Pandur
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Wow. I read his commentary as being very on point with some sarcasm tossed in. Apparently, others thought it was some sort of personal attack??? Maybe I come from a less sensitive generation.

Whatever your FEELINGS are, @General Jack Ripper has made some SOLID points, AND has advised how to get around the game engine limitations...AND shown both techniques in action.

Now, onto the OP's question: I really don't think you'll see this get changed anytime soon. (<- IMO)

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34 minutes ago, c3k said:

Wow. I read his commentary as being very on point with some sarcasm tossed in. Apparently, others thought it was some sort of personal attack??? Maybe I come from a less sensitive generation.

Whatever your FEELINGS are, @General Jack Ripper has made some SOLID points, AND has advised how to get around the game engine limitations...AND shown both techniques in action.

Don't start on the whole "liberal snowflakes" thing. I'm sure your generation also knows how to deal with other people in a respectful way. Mostly because they are from a time when you talked face to face, instead of playing tough guys while hiding behind a computer screen like some people do today.

And that aside, his post was not useful. I think most of the people on the forum already know and use those workarounds. They work to some extent to prevent the issues of teams running around normal buildings, but they do not solve the issue with the buggy buildings.

 

34 minutes ago, c3k said:

Now, onto the OP's question: I really don't think you'll see this get changed anytime soon. (<- IMO)

MikeyD gave a good answer when he explained that many of the faulty doors have been "baked into" the scenarios, so they are still around in the campaigns even though the bugs have actually been fixed later. I was happy to hear that, even though it doesn't help when playing the old scenarios.

Edited by Bulletpoint
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A few points...trying to keep this on track with your OP.

 

7 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

And that aside, his post was not useful.

His post was very useful. It explained, and used examples, of how splitting up into teams and giving staggered timing orders to each team will prevent an team from running around to the wrong side of a house. 

You may not like the STYLE he used, but the factual content was spot-on and useful to those who don't know that a full squad will send autonomously split into teams to pathfind to the next waypoint.

 

7 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

I think most of the people on the forum already know and use those workarounds. They work to some extent to prevent the issues of teams running around normal buildings, but they do not solve the issue with the buggy buildings.

If you re-read your original post, you did not specify that you KNEW about the pathfinding/autonomous splitting behavior. That behavior is responsible for the vast majority of running around to the wrong side. The "buggy buildings" issue is much more rare (and solved in recent releases.) You mentioned doors being mis-aligned, parenthetically and only in regards to a specific campaign.

 

7 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

MikeyD gave a good answer when he explained that many of the faulty doors have been "baked into" the scenarios, so they are still around in the campaigns even though the bugs have actually been fixed later. I was happy to hear that, even though it doesn't help when playing the old scenarios.

^^^

This is true. The requirement to take out ALL buildings and replace them with the SAME building solved a LOT of those issues. 

There are still two outstanding issues: sometimes terrain slope will make a door unusable and sometimes invisible damage will make a door unusable. Both of these cases will cause a team to run around to the "wrong side".

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34 minutes ago, c3k said:

If you re-read your original post, you did not specify that you KNEW about the pathfinding/autonomous splitting behavior.

His suggestions were to split into teams, move up to the building, then enter. That's also the procedure I outlined in my first post. I was talking about moving a team, not a squad. And moving it up to a building, then enter. So I thought it was obvious I knew about the method.


But ok. Let's take a step back and break this down:

Problem 1: Squads will sometimes send teams around buildings to enter. But in most cases, they enter from the same side just fine. Workaround: Split into teams.

Problem 2: Teams will (rarely but unpredictably) also run around buildings. Sometimes because of blocking terrain, sometimes for seemingly no reason. No workaround that I know of. This is the primary issue I was asking about in my first post.

Problem 3: Some non-modular buildings are buggy because doors are not where they are shown to be. Solution: work in progress. I appreciate BF are aware and that this is being worked on.

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18 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Problem 1: Squads will sometimes send teams around buildings to enter. But in most cases, they enter from the same side just fine. Workaround: Split into teams.

Exactly. (And add pauses so teams do not jam up at the doorways.)

18 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Problem 2: Teams will (rarely but unpredictably) also run around buildings. Sometimes because of blocking terrain, sometimes for seemingly no reason. No workaround that I know of. This is the primary issue I was asking about in my first post.

Agreed. Examples of this are frustrating. There are subsets of this problem.

A: Sometimes, if you track the battle, the building face they run away from has been exposed to incoming fire. In this case, the game engine tracks the building damage. It does not meet the level of "show damage". The result is a visibly undamaged building having an internally coded damaged doorway. Your troops cannot enter through the damage, so they run away to an undamaged entry. This undamaged doorway is usually on the enemy's side of the building, since you cannot fire at that facade for suppression.

B: In the same case as above, but the internal game engine has tracked the building damage and it has passed the "show damage" threshold. In this case, you SEE damage, but it appears to be light. You -think- a few bullet holes in the wall would not cause enough rubble or debris to block a doorway, but your troops still run around to the enemy's side.

C  Rare, but visible: Some buildings sink into the terrain (due to undulations in the contour and the need for buildings to be level) and this blocks a doorway, even though the building model shows a door. These can be anticipated if you look closely at the building. (A scenario designer could rotate the building such that the doorway is on the non-sunken face.)

18 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Problem 3: Some non-modular buildings are buggy because doors are not where they are shown to be. Solution: work in progress. I appreciate BF are aware and that this is being worked on.

This is also rare. As specific examples are found, they are added to the "fix in an upcoming patch" pile. If players see these, specific savegames and screenshots are incredibly helpful to allow Beta testers to recreate the problem and post them internally to the "fix in an upcoming patch" pile. Otherwise, it is up to the Beta testers to happen to catch it as it occurs.

(A corollary is that the game engine "sets" the map in the editor. So, if Big Factory building gets fixed in a patch, EVERY battle that uses Big Factory building has to be opened and resaved. (Big Factory building may have to be removed and re-emplaced, as well. Possibly with editor saves in between?) In a perfect world, every time such a building fix is generated, BFC will re-release all the official battles with that building, having already done the editor work. That way the player never has to do it...except for his pre-existing non-official battles which have Big Factory building.)

 

 

Of all of these, buggy buildings can be fixed...as they are found and reported. Nothing can be done until they get fixed.

My subset "A", damaged buildings with no visual clue to the player, is the more frustrating, to me. It would be nice (no idea if this is feasible) to have a damage decal added to buildings with inoperable doorways. Something that shows beams or debris in front of the door.

Otherwise, I voluntarily suspend disbelief and imagine that a previous occupant has blockaded the doorway such that it cannot be kicked open.

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